Thank you for those clips and also to @DRW50 for tagging me!

I feel like I can't comment with any confidence on the stories/characters of the Paley Center clip because I know so little about that era, but it was a fascinating watch, getting to see GS as Viki, seeing Victor, and imagining whatever would have been going on storyline-wise. Got a little chill when the nurse was speaking for some reason I can't really pinpoint.

I do have a question about the Paley Center -- do we know how many episodes they actually have in their archives? And the clips we get are just from people who manage to get clips on their phone when watching? And this is probably a naive question, but what would be the reason the Paley Center wouldn't be able to, say, put the episodes on their website for fans to view? Is it a rights thing or that they just don't think it needs to be a priority?

And does anyone know at what point ABC started keeping episodes instead of (what I'm assuming they did which was) recording over/destroying old episodes?

That news segment was also a cool watch, especially as they said Harry Carson was a soap fan, so that must have been a dream come true for him.

That's another era that I'm not familiar with, but I did recognize Rae!

I also found this picture on the NFL website:

I have some other things I want to reply to, but I want to post this now to see if I did the picture properly.

An Alcoa Premiere with Barbara Luna. Just to warn - the episode is not about Robert and Barbara being in the bath.

Hour of the Bath--Robert Fuller, Barbara Luna, 1962 TV - YouTube

Thanks @sunvsbanner I hadn't seen that photo.

I always associate Linda with her shorter cuts but the length here looks good too.

Edited yesterday at 02:23 AM1 day by DRW50

On 4/10/2026 at 9:28 PM, Vee said:

I will give Ron Carlivati credit. Whatever Malone may have intended with Heart of a Lord before Roger Howarth left (by his own admission) as soon as humanly possible, RC managed to give it some sort of weight many years later. He tied in Victor's signet ring (which Todd took from "Victor" and became mysteriously fixated on in 2003 before Howarth's exit) and made it part of the conspiracy plotline in 2011 with the Two Todds, which also tied back to '03 - the ring had microfilm in it or something connected to Irene's spy organization. I appreciated that small touch in an otherwise very silly retcon story.

As much as I appreciated that that story did follow through with making RH's Todd the real deal (there was no coming back from TSJ's version of the character after raping Marty yet again and trying to steal Starr's kid and probably a bunch of other things I've managed to block out), I couldn't stand the CIA stuff. As you said, it was silly. I didn't even remember the signet ring part, actually.

Speaking of RH, I have a vague memory of listening to a podcast, maybe during COVID, where RH talked about departing. My memory on it is fuzzy, but maybe you or someone remembers and can confirm -- I think I remember him actually saying that someone at OLTL passed him a note warning him that Malone was going to pair Todd and Marty and that RH needed to leave as soon as he could, which was how he ended up going to ATWT. I can't remember which podcast this might have been -- I was listening to tons of podcasts around that time -- or if I have the details right, but that has always stayed with me because I hadn't heard that part, that someone had warned him. In my memory, he didn't actually say who it was that warned him. Now I'm wondering if I made it up. But I also have a memory tied to that of Malone admitting, either on that same podcast or maybe on another one, that he really was going to pair Todd and Marty, and that shocked me, because I'd always been convinced that he never would have gone there.

On 4/10/2026 at 9:28 PM, Vee said:

I was ecstatic when Malone was rehired in late '02. I could not have been more excited, or more disappointed with the results. But looking back now, especially revisiting the early '90s, it's not hard for me personally to believe it's the same writer. The same gothic trappings, the same literary influences and stylistic elements, the same obsessions, the same love for fantasy episodes and old Hollywood interludes, the same tropes or archetypes (holy man, party girl) are all very evident in both runs. It's just that both the budget and the larger quality control of the scripts, storylines and in a number of key cases acting is way, way below the bar. Brian Frons' ABC micromanaging the show and what stories got told with who couldn't have helped either, and in fact actively hindered the show in a number of instances we know of. But Malone made his own bed as well. He also was reusing messy stuff he'd attempted at Another World, and possibly also his unsold 13 Bourbon Street pilot for Fox primetime (which we all still want to see).

Those are good points about the gothic aspect, style elements, and similar tropes. I guess it's the execution that bothers me so much, which would have been some factors outside of his control but also in his control.

I've read about the 13 Bourbon Street pilot. Wasn't Tuc Watkins supposed to star? Was anyone else going to be in it?

On 4/10/2026 at 9:28 PM, Vee said:

Still, as bad as it got Malone II was an undeniably creative, very volatile time. You had literally no idea what you were going to see from day to day, be it brilliant (rare), terrible or just plain ugly. And some character vignettes (like Kevin and Jen Rappaport bellying up to the same bar to trade war stories about Joey who they both screwed over, with Kevin flat-out telling Jen she was just a substitute for Kelly in Joey's life) were of a type we never got to see on the show again. Some reinventions or new ideas worked, many didn't. Some stories and concepts had good bones and terrible execution but there was always a lot of passion, however misguided. That was the story of that period, and it was succeeded by probably the darkest era in the show's history for me (Dena Higley, who I think added the weird 'Cristian is not Cristian no wait he is' twist - she came in in very late '04).

Oh, I was hooked during Malone II, even if I didn't like all the stories.

I couldn't remember which writer did the Cristian twist but it doesn't surprise me that it would have been Higley.

On 4/10/2026 at 9:28 PM, Vee said:

As for Max and Gabrielle in 2001, what I was told is one of the actors explicitly (and quietly) asked to end it due to the howlingly bad reception from both the audience and the soap press. It's been so long that I can probably just say it but you might as well take a guess. I don't know if that's true but I couldn't blame anyone if so. I know Malone allegedly wanted to revisit them while re-pairing Bo and Nora, but neither got off the ground. Exterminating the Holdens was a Frons directive.

Wow. Well, my first guess was FH because all I've ever heard about JDP backstage is that he was noisy when he didn't like something, but maybe by 2001 he had mellowed/maybe due to his friendship (I'm going to assume they were friends) with FH, he wouldn't have wanted to be very on the record about no longer wanting them to work together?

I'll go with that guess. Also because I think I remember he liked Max and Roxy, and IIRC that was where he went next.

On 4/14/2026 at 6:37 PM, CrazySexyQ said:

Thanks for the post and tag. The Viki/Dorian/Victor story is one of the first stories I got into when I started watching. I really bought Erika Slezak as so many different alters and just hated Victor. He wasn't on the canvas, but look what he did to prim-and-proper Viki. Tori was my favorite alter. She was so chill and laid back. I lost it when Todd said she was acting like "white trash."

Tori is also my favorite alter. She's the most fun to watch.

On 4/15/2026 at 9:28 AM, slick jones said:

Trying to identify what year this One Life to Live scene is from Starts at 2:03. Any help is appreciated.

October 10, 2005. They think it's Margaret, I believe. I couldn't bring myself to do more than just click around the episode on Youtube.

2 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Thanks @sunvsbanner I hadn't seen that photo.

I always associate Linda with her shorter cuts but the length here looks good too.

You're welcome! She looks good.

Edited yesterday at 05:13 AM1 day by sunvsbanner

24 minutes ago, sunvsbanner said:

Speaking of RH, I have a vague memory of listening to a podcast, maybe during COVID, where RH talked about departing. My memory on it is fuzzy, but maybe you or someone remembers and can confirm -- I think I remember him actually saying that someone at OLTL passed him a note warning him that Malone was going to pair Todd and Marty and that RH needed to leave as soon as he could, which was how he ended up going to ATWT. I can't remember which podcast this might have been -- I was listening to tons of podcasts around that time -- or if I have the details right, but that has always stayed with me because I hadn't heard that part, that someone had warned him. In my memory, he didn't actually say who it was that warned him. Now I'm wondering if I made it up. But I also have a memory tied to that of Malone admitting, either on that same podcast or maybe on another one, that he really was going to pair Todd and Marty, and that shocked me, because I'd always been convinced that he never would have gone there.

I've read about the 13 Bourbon Street pilot. Wasn't Tuc Watkins supposed to star? Was anyone else going to be in it?

Yes, we discussed that podcast here once or twice. But IIRC what Howarth said was that he was perennially unhappy in the job in those years due to the nature of the character which was wearing on his mental health, and someone passed him a note with the number of ATWT's EP or casting director or something; nothing about Malone specifically.

He did want out very, very quickly after Malone returned. It could have been old beef re: the Todd/Marty dynamic in the '90s and their issues over story. Though Malone always maintained he would not have actually put them together romantically their dynamic was extremely iffy in '95, and I think both Howarth and Susan Haskell have said they got the impression or were told flat-out that Malone wanted to pair them up. So that could've been the drama there in '03. But another rumor that came out in the 2000s was that Malone had actually pitched the 'Rashomon'-esque 'was it rape?' story with TSJ's Todd and Blair for RH's instead as soon as he returned to the show. That version of the story claimed Howarth balked at that pitch and immediately fled to CBS. The story was later done at the end of '03 with TSJ and it didn't go well.

Roger Howarth did return to ABC in 2011 much more zen about the character and willing to work by his own admission in the press, and I did appreciate that. He worked hard despite messy story from then on, and he worked hard in a series of bad roles at GH even when I didn't think his skill set was doing well. That's more than I can say for Trevor St. John, who's a talented guy who started out strong but was always volatile onscreen, and seemed contemptuous of everything a lot of the time after his first two years.

I will say I have never heard anything about JDP or Fiona Hutchison having issues with each other personally. AFAIK they always worked well together and were/are on good terms. The issue one of them had was with the 2001 story and the audience/press response to it. It tanked and at least one of them wanted out, and quietly made it happen. The quiet part was presumably done not to offend the costar, and as a result I sat on that story from a friend for about 20 years.

I can't remember offhand the many names attached to the Bourbon Street pilot. I don't remember hearing Tuc. I think Henry Simmons from AW among others were in the mix. @DRW50 or @EricMontreal22 might recall. It was a who's who of soap people.

Edited 23 hours ago23 hr by Vee

5 minutes ago, Vee said:

I can't remember offhand the many names attached to the Bourbon Street pilot. I don't remember hearing Tuc. I think Henry Simmons from AW among others were in the mix. @DRW50 or @EricMontreal22 might recall. It was a who's who of soap people.

On IMDB, the names listed are Nicole Forester, Philippe Hartmann, Mia Matthew, Michael Park, Simmons, Gerrold Vincent, Brendan Wentworth, PaSean Wilson.

Malone, presumably, would bring Simmons and Wilson to AW when he briefly joined the show as headwriter.

I'd forgotten about Michael Park and Nicole Forester(!). What a small world.

Someday that pilot (along with the '68 Paley Center episode) is gonna leak.

Speaking of 13 Bourbon Street, I think our very own Eric dug this AW-era '97 Malone interview up from the soap mags. Or so it seemed when I Googled around hoping something new had appeared. Thanks, Eric!

Moving to the past, can we talk about Linda Gottlieb? Much has been said about your controversial -- reportedly often fiery -- partnership on OLTL. The show was at its best when you two were together, a splendid example of exec producer/head writer synchronicity no matter what the hell was going on backstage.

Out of the antagonism between me and Linda often came wonderful things. I admire her brains and her courage and her great esteem for the talent of the writer. She knows when to back off and say, "OK, do it your way."

And obviously you wanted to work with her again -- witness 13 Bourbon Street [the Fox soap created last year by Gottlieb, Malone and Josh Griffith]. First it was supposed to be a late-night show, then it was prime time, then Fox stopped talking about it altogether. What the heck happened?

What Bourbon Street was supposed to be and what it turned out to be were two different things. To me, the thrill of the show was that we were going to take the form that I love, which is the five-times-a-week storytelling of daytime, and do it at 11 o'clock at night. And because it was on Fox, we were going to be freer to take risks, experiment, push the envelope in ways the traditions of daytime don't allow. And we were going to have the enormous thrill of starting from page one. And it was going to be set in New Orleans, which, as a Southerner, was very appealing to me. Fox's commitment to the show by then-president John Matoian was marvelous. We proceeded ahead but then the regime changed. A new president came in with a whole new administration that didn't feel Fox was ready to take on that late-night slot.

So they decided to take it prime time?

Right. I was very concerned and disappointed. You can't take a show conceived to run five nights a week and turn it to a once a week show. In the first place, there are too many characters, and the stories are too interlaced to shrink it that way. We had way more secrets and connections between characters than a weekly show could hold. We had to get rid of several characters, we had to collapse several -- and when you start to do that, you start to lose story. And you get more cautious -- I mean, this soap had voodoo and ghosts in it. New Orleans always felt to me to be a perfect place for a soap opera -- very steamy, full of secrets and tangled pasts. Anyway, prime time doesn't interest me because, frankly, it's mostly formulaic. It suffers from tremendous network interference, and it's ultimately boring. And so, what happened was Bourbon Street kept changing and changing and becoming less and less like itself and then finally everybody just agreed it wasn't working.

Did you ever actually shoot anything?

Oh, yeah! The pilot. It's beautiful. Would you like to see it?

You bet! So the whole thing was cast?

Absolutely -- and all the sets built.

Good God.

Everything was in place. An entire staff -- and you know the kind of staff you need to do a five times a week show! We had Lonette McKee and John Beck as the leads, and a lot of really good young people you wouldn't know. After it died, I had some interest from prime time -- but as I said, that bores me. And movies are all about taking lunch.

On 4/17/2026 at 6:27 AM, DRW50 said:

At about 14 minutes there is a news segment on Harry Carson doing a cameo on OLTL. He plays an athlete named Frank Sparrow. They include a clip where Pat is interviewing him - it goes on a bit longer than I'd expected. Based on the date I assume this aired on December 26, 1979.

You also get a glimpse of Linda Dano as Gretel.

American Archive of Public Broadcasting

New Jersey Nightly News; New Jersey Nightly News Episode...

No Description "New Jersey Nightly News is a daily news show, featuring stories on local and national news topics."

@Vee @vetsoapfan @slick jones @titan1978 @Paul Raven @MissPalmer @Stevel @mar4331 @All My Shadows @Soaplovers @Kane @Khan @CrazySexyQ @EricMontreal22 @SoapDope78 @alwaysAMC @soapfave06 @Spoon @sunvsbanner @Maxim @SFK @Franko

On 4/13/2026 at 12:17 PM, DRW50 said:

Thanks for this treasure @MissPalmer and thank you to @Vee for the tag.

I know that one tiny fragment with Viki and Victor was around but I had never seen the rest. I sure as hell had never seen Jim Storm as Larry!

@Paul Raven @slick jones @SFK @sunvsbanner @Maxim @mar4331 @alwaysAMC @CrazySexyQ @Kane @soapfave06 @Soaplovers @SoapDope78 @All My Shadows @cassadine1991 @Spoon

Thank you so much for the tags @DRW50 ! First thing I saw since I came back to check the board and it made me smile!

18 hours ago, sunvsbanner said:

As much as I appreciated that that story did follow through with making RH's Todd the real deal (there was no coming back from TSJ's version of the character after raping Marty yet again and trying to steal Starr's kid and probably a bunch of other things I've managed to block out), I couldn't stand the CIA stuff. As you said, it was silly. I didn't even remember the signet ring part, actually.

Speaking of RH, I have a vague memory of listening to a podcast, maybe during COVID, where RH talked about departing. My memory on it is fuzzy, but maybe you or someone remembers and can confirm -- I think I remember him actually saying that someone at OLTL passed him a note warning him that Malone was going to pair Todd and Marty and that RH needed to leave as soon as he could, which was how he ended up going to ATWT. I can't remember which podcast this might have been -- I was listening to tons of podcasts around that time -- or if I have the details right, but that has always stayed with me because I hadn't heard that part, that someone had warned him. In my memory, he didn't actually say who it was that warned him. Now I'm wondering if I made it up. But I also have a memory tied to that of Malone admitting, either on that same podcast or maybe on another one, that he really was going to pair Todd and Marty, and that shocked me, because I'd always been convinced that he never would have gone there.

Those are good points about the gothic aspect, style elements, and similar tropes. I guess it's the execution that bothers me so much, which would have been some factors outside of his control but also in his control.

I've read about the 13 Bourbon Street pilot. Wasn't Tuc Watkins supposed to star? Was anyone else going to be in it?

Oh, I was hooked during Malone II, even if I didn't like all the stories.

I couldn't remember which writer did the Cristian twist but it doesn't surprise me that it would have been Higley.

Wow. Well, my first guess was FH because all I've ever heard about JDP backstage is that he was noisy when he didn't like something, but maybe by 2001 he had mellowed/maybe due to his friendship (I'm going to assume they were friends) with FH, he wouldn't have wanted to be very on the record about no longer wanting them to work together?

I'll go with that guess. Also because I think I remember he liked Max and Roxy, and IIRC that was where he went next.

Tori is also my favorite alter. She's the most fun to watch.

October 10, 2005. They think it's Margaret, I believe. I couldn't bring myself to do more than just click around the episode on Youtube.

You're welcome! She looks good.

Thanks!

17 hours ago, Vee said:

Yes, we discussed that podcast here once or twice. But IIRC what Howarth said was that he was perennially unhappy in the job in those years due to the nature of the character which was wearing on his mental health, and someone passed him a note with the number of ATWT's EP or casting director or something; nothing about Malone specifically.

Okay, thank you, that makes more sense -- I just remembered something about a note and there being something a little more cloak-and-dagger about his story than what I'd first assumed, which was just that he saw Malone and was like, "Time to leave again." But getting a note from someone trying to get him over to OLTL's timeslot competitor feels...odd? Then again, I guess it's not like there were that many soaps left in NY.

17 hours ago, Vee said:

He did want out very, very quickly after Malone returned. It could have been old beef re: the Todd/Marty dynamic in the '90s and their issues over story. Though Malone always maintained he would not have actually put them together romantically their dynamic was extremely iffy in '95, and I think both Howarth and Susan Haskell have said they got the impression or were told flat-out that Malone wanted to pair them up. So that could've been the drama there in '03. But another rumor that came out in the 2000s was that Malone had actually pitched the 'Rashomon'-esque 'was it rape?' story with TSJ's Todd and Blair for RH's instead as soon as he returned to the show. That version of the story claimed Howarth balked at that pitch and immediately fled to CBS. The story was later done at the end of '03 with TSJ and it didn't go well.

I definitely understand the problems with their post-rape dynamic and why both RH and SH would have been deeply uncomfortable. But I always gave Malone the benefit of the doubt, that he wasn't actually planning a Luke/Laura romance but going for...some other kind of story? About what can or can't be forgiven or something something about the human spirit or grace or the question of redemption that may have worked better in a book and not on an ongoing soap opera where the lead actor was already being traumatized by fans asking him to rape them next.

I'm actually at episodes not long before Spring Fling in my first-ever watch of 1993, and I definitely don't get the sense from the writing that there was even an inkling in Malone's mind that he'd get around to pairing them after the rape, which fits obviously because RH was just supposed to be short-term. Todd's a misogynistic louse; his function as lead gang rapist is clear and foreshadowed well; and there's no hinting at any layers to him or to the gross way way he, as Jason says at one point, treats Marty like garbage.

I haven't seen RH in anything pre-OLTL. I know how good he is on OLTL. I just wonder at what point it became clear to TPTB that they'd made a horrible, horrible mistake casting him as Rapist #1. How they chose to try to course-correct is of course controversial, and I'm not here to defend it. I just want to know when they realized they screwed up, and that they could have cast any number of good-looking young actors to play "cute guy who is actually a monster" for a handful of weeks before getting killed off and that they should have put RH in some other role that wouldn't require trying to redeem him from unspeakable acts.

Or maybe RH on OLTL only happened the way he did because he was playing Todd.

I do remember the rape revisit of 2003 and 2004. At the time, I thought Malone was just trying to ground TSJ's version of the character in Todd's history of rape. But I think it makes more sense that he was planning it for RH and RH said nope and bailed. (As an aside, when I started watching OLTL, I remember chatter on message boards about RH supposedly hating the pairing with Blair and hating working with KDP. But RH's various comings and goings and what motivated them seems like serious evidence to the contrary.)

17 hours ago, Vee said:

Roger Howarth did return to ABC in 2011 much more zen about the character and willing to work by his own admission in the press, and I did appreciate that. He worked hard despite messy story from then on, and he worked hard in a series of bad roles at GH even when I didn't think his skill set was doing well. That's more than I can say for Trevor St. John, who's a talented guy who started out strong but was always volatile onscreen, and seemed contemptuous of everything a lot of the time after his first two years.

RH shocked me with his return to OLTL, not in how committed he was to the material, because he usually, to me, seemed committed even if he maybe didn't personally care for the story, but in, like you said, his zen approach to the character. It was like a weight had lifted off his shoulders. I wonder what did it.

TSJ had the tools to make a new version of Todd work, and like you said, that was evident early on. But he was apparently a poor fit for a soap opera role. It's a little shocking the degree to which he chose to express his displeasure behind the scenes. Like, buddy, I know you were upset Dan Gauthier was fired -- I was upset, too! But it's like when that happened (coupled with I guess not getting paired with REG?) he just gave up on the show and gave up on playing any actual semblance of the character he was hired to play, just like the writers gave up on writing any recognizable version of Todd.

17 hours ago, Vee said:

I will say I have never heard anything about JDP or Fiona Hutchison having issues with each other personally. AFAIK they always worked well together and were/are on good terms. The issue one of them had was with the 2001 story and the audience/press response to it. It tanked and at least one of them wanted out, and quietly made it happen. The quiet part was presumably done not to offend the costar, and as a result I sat on that story from a friend for about 20 years.

Okay, I won't ask any more, but that does make me feel more settled I guess about not getting to see more of them when I started watching, which was when they were both still on the show. I haven't seen them in any real way in any of the periods I've watched so far, but at some point I'll get that part of the '80s.

17 hours ago, Vee said:

I can't remember offhand the many names attached to the Bourbon Street pilot. I don't remember hearing Tuc. I think Henry Simmons from AW among others were in the mix. @DRW50 or @EricMontreal22 might recall. It was a who's who of soap people.

Thank you to you and @DRW50 for the cast info-- I'm 90% convinced I read something once about Tuc being attached to that pilot, but I just did a Google search and can't find anything. Maybe it was in one of the magazines. But the memory is so strong that whenever I remember that pilot exists, he's one of the ones I think of. It'll be embarrassing if I'm wrong! But I might well be.

@slick jones, you are welcome!

16 minutes ago, sunvsbanner said:

Okay, thank you, that makes more sense -- I just remembered something about a note and there being something a little more cloak-and-dagger about his story than what I'd first assumed, which was just that he saw Malone and was like, "Time to leave again." But getting a note from someone trying to get him over to OLTL's timeslot competitor feels...odd? Then again, I guess it's not like there were that many soaps left in NY.

I definitely understand the problems with their post-rape dynamic and why both RH and SH would have been deeply uncomfortable. But I always gave Malone the benefit of the doubt, that he wasn't actually planning a Luke/Laura romance but going for...some other kind of story? About what can or can't be forgiven or something something about the human spirit or grace or the question of redemption that may have worked better in a book and not on an ongoing soap opera where the lead actor was already being traumatized by fans asking him to rape them next.

IIRC it was more that Howarth was talking to a friend or colleague about his issues and that's how it came up. That's all I know there.

I don't know if Malone would ever have actually paired Todd and Marty were it up to him. But whatever he said to the press or told himself, the actors believed it and I do think he was fascinated by that relationship. I can't necessarily blame him or the show for focusing on the dynamic because the actors were very charged together onscreen right to the end. But looking at the material today and how it was both written and staged, however impeccably done, it still dates very poorly and seems really inappropriate in 2026. It was obviously presented (IMO) as a kind of budding emotional affair or subconscious love triangle with Marty while Todd was with Blair in '95.

I do think that for all his blinders there Malone would never have gone near doing the rapemance from '08 in the way Ron Carlivati did it. They even interviewed him for comment on it at the time, and he basically gave RC the benefit of the doubt and said he would wait to see how it played out (before consummation). I have to believe Susan Haskell was sold a bill of goods about that story as well when she returned, even if it did get her an Emmy. (There were rumors at the time that they had actually intended to get Roger back in '08 and reveal that TSJ's "Todd" was not Todd mid-rapemance, but who knows.) I know she left the show very unhappy with FV/RC and her exit story a few years later, which also kept Thorsten Kaye from returning to usher her out as Patrick. She's never spoken about it to press or in public.

I think Roger had just grown up a lot in his years at CBS (where he'd also had a lot of bad writing and not exactly been massively popular anymore). He was just happy to no longer be playing a rapist. But even Erika Slezak very recently (when they reunited in LA last year) said she'd always loved working with him but he was 'a pain in the ass' when he was young, and that he was much more easygoing when he returned in '11 lol. She's been much more circumspect about TSJ through the years.

The RH/KDP, FL, etc. relationships are generally suspect to a lot of fanbase war stuff. But what we do know is RH and KDP had ups and downs due to his issues with his role in the '90s and '00s and that when he came back they both were a lot more comfortable with each other. I had heard Howarth approached her to mend fences shortly before or after returning to the show, and they've been spotted IRL very chummy a number of times since, including last year. All's well that ends well.

I can't really blame OLTL for going ahead with Todd Manning to begin with in 1993. Yes, they cast a great actor to play a gang rapist but he took off like a rocket. It was a different time, and whether we like it or not soaps had made allowances for rapists and abusers played by exciting actors more than once. Knowing what we do now and living how we do today you certainly can't deny how much it changed and at times broke the show. Even starting in '91 again recently I can see how much Todd changed things. And any OLTL that lived today could not have two rapist twins as its leading men. They would have to be gone, or at least not around or regularly present for a long time. But do I regret that RH was there, that Todd had story? Only sometimes.

The TSJ years OTOH I am increasingly inclined to throw out. Which is too bad, because when he wanted to be he could be very good. His feud with Kevin was second to none. He was also very good at playing a pure psychopath. Some of the scenes with Marty near the end of his run just before her miscarriage, where he traps her in her office and taunts her, threatening her about their kids, are insane for a romantic leading man of the show. It was just totally unacceptable. That wasn't on him, it was on the writing. He gave a very good performance as a monster in those kind of scenes, but he also was not above trolling anything that might make the character more human.

Edited 4 hours ago4 hr by Vee

2 hours ago, Vee said:

I don't know if Malone would ever have actually paired Todd and Marty were it up to him. But whatever he said to the press or told himself, the actors believed it and I do think he was fascinated by that relationship. I can't necessarily blame him or the show for focusing on the dynamic because the actors were very charged together onscreen right to the end. But looking at the material today and how it was both written and staged, however impeccably done, it still dates very poorly and seems really inappropriate in 2026. It was obviously presented (IMO) as a kind of budding emotional affair or subconscious love triangle with Marty while Todd was with Blair in '95.

Yeah, at the end of the day, it matters less what Malone said and believed and more that the actors were picking up on something that made them uncomfortable, and that was eventually going to affect their performances and did lead to RH leaving, twice.

I know KDP has claimed that she always played it like Blair believed Todd was in love with Marty. I doubt that helped matters, and I wonder if she ever disclosed that to RH.

2 hours ago, Vee said:

I do think that for all his blinders there Malone would never have gone near doing the rapemance from '08 in the way Ron Carlivati did it. They even interviewed him for comment on it at the time, and he basically gave RC the benefit of the doubt and said he would wait to see how it played out (before consummation).

I remember that interview, and what makes me agree and think Malone wouldn't have done it is that, to my recollection, he didn't seem open to the idea. One would think if he were, he would have praised the story. It's not like he would have had anything to lose.

2 hours ago, Vee said:

I think Roger had just grown up a lot in his years at CBS (where he'd also had a lot of bad writing and not exactly been massively popular anymore). He was just happy to no longer be playing a rapist. But even Erika Slezak very recently (when they reunited in LA last year) said she'd always loved working with him but he was 'a pain in the ass' when he was young, and that he was much more easygoing when he returned in '11 lol.

Yeah, it was probably a combination of things, but mostly that time and distance, and maybe also some degree of an actor's professional ambition to reclaim a role that was his. Not that I think RH cared that much what Todd was doing from 2003-2010 or that he had any kind of feeling about TSJ's take on the role, but surely it was at least a little satisfying to sit at that Sun desk and drawl at TSJ's Todd, "It sucks, right? You know the face, but you just can't put your finger on the name."

2 hours ago, Vee said:

The RH/KDP, FL, etc. relationships are generally suspect to a lot of fanbase war stuff. But what we do know is RH and KDP had ups and downs due to his issues with his role in the '90s and '00s and that when he came back they both were a lot more comfortable with each other. I had heard Howarth approached her to mend fences shortly before or after returning to the show, and they've been spotted IRL very chummy a number of times since, including last year. All's well that ends well.

Yeah, I was naive about how fanbase wars were coloring things when I first started looking around online. Actually watching the episodes, he seems committed to playing the story and not undermining it or her, in spite of things not always being easy between them on set.

2 hours ago, Vee said:

I can't really blame OLTL for going ahead with Todd Manning to begin with in 1993. Yes, they cast a great actor to play a gang rapist but he took off like a rocket. It was a different time, and whether we like it or not soaps had made allowances for rapists and abusers played by exciting actors more than once. Knowing what we do now and living how we do today you certainly can't deny how much it changed and at times broke the show. Even starting in '91 again recently I can see how much Todd changed things. And any OLTL that lived today could not have two rapist twins as its leading men. They would have to be gone, or at least not around or regularly present for a long time. But do I regret that RH was there, that Todd had story? Only sometimes.

I can't totally blame them either. Like you said, it was the way things were.

And even in these early scenes, RH is magnetic and inhabiting the role with force and throwing in subtle little touches/gestures that are evidence of that force. I watched an episode the other day where Suede calls him over to the bar to take a call from Marty, and when Suede reluctantly hands him the phone, Todd subtly puckers his lips at him.

2 hours ago, Vee said:

The TSJ years OTOH I am increasingly inclined to throw out. Which is too bad, because when he wanted to be he could be very good. His feud with Kevin was second to none.

Oh, absolutely, he could be so good, which was what made it so frustrating to watch what that performance devolved into. Not a lot of actors could have made it believable early on that he could be Todd, but he somehow pulled it off.

When I've watched more of 1993 and thus will have seen more of KG's Kevin, I could probably rank the various incarnations of Todd/Kevin, but TSJ's Todd and DG's Kevin would be high on the list.

2 hours ago, Vee said:

He was also very good at playing a pure psychopath. Some of the scenes with Marty near the end of his run just before her miscarriage, where he traps her in her office and taunts her, threatening her about their kids, are insane for a romantic leading man of the show. It was just totally unacceptable. That wasn't on him, it was on the writing. He gave a very good performance as a monster in those kind of scenes, but he also was not above trolling anything that might make the character more human.

He really would have made a great psychopathic character. He seemed to have fun playing Mitch's brother, Flynn, that mobster.

Also, about your earlier comment about ES, I remember she seemed less than impressed. Tuc Watkins also said something in an interview once about actors who pull stunts in scenes, and I always thought that was directed at TSJ.

1 hour ago, sunvsbanner said:

I know KDP has claimed that she always played it like Blair believed Todd was in love with Marty. I doubt that helped matters, and I wonder if she ever disclosed that to RH.

Well, it was also more than that. I think there's at least a few days in summer or fall '95 where Blair flat out says it to his face onscreen lol. As part of a precursor to their finally getting back together (with Marty urging Todd to recommit to Blair, of course) and their marrying as Marty goes off to Ireland to meet Patrick. Just a lot of sketchy layers there.

I don't remember if they actually did intercut a Marty/Patrick love scene in that period with Todd and Blair ("tonight I'm your wife") but I remember the story. It might be true. I'd have to go back and look.