Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[SFK]

That would have been a sensible move, a big "duh" really. A lot of her and nuFrankie Alimi Ballard's stuff was with Pat too who was presumably still in PV (?), that I don't remember. Pat is LONG overdue for a visit, they act like she doesn't even exist anymore. Maybe she doesn't?

Edited March 9, 2011 by SFK

[cityfan01]

Towards the end of CITY's run, Alex was having conversations with Ava regarding Sandy coming to live with him for a while. I always thought that they were planning on an Ava return, but the show was cancelled and that whole story was scrapped.

[LeClerc]

I have an old issue of Soap Opera Magazine where James Harmon Brown talked about the plan to bring back at least one of Alex's kids:

This same sentiment was expressed by Brown and Jean Dadario Burke in an interview they did at the show's one-year mark

It seems like bringing some of the kids back was done in direct response to Harding Lemay's criticism of the show when ABC asked him to consult:

In the same SOM interview Brown says, in regards to bringing back Ava, that they "haven't ruled out that possibility". Which to me says there were no plans.

[DRW50]

Thanks so much for sharing this interview - I didn't know this. I don't think The City was ever going to be a big hit but I do wish they had marketed differently and given it a little more time, perhaps another year. I think it could have become a cult show. If there was ever a soap that needed writers outside of daytime this was it.

I don't think Ava was coming back either. Lisa must have been in negotiations with AW around this time - didn't she first appear in spring 1997?

BTW, anyone who wants to see Robert Tyler on ATWT - I can't remember all the episode dates, but on Youtube, but in August 17, 1988 (As the World Turns). He's in the first clip of that and probably several others. I can't embed.

[EricMontreal22]

Ha ha and he's shirtless from the start!

I do think the last 6 months of City were really strong and they had found their footing, their pacing (even ifsome characters like Tony Soleito were beyond annoying they managed to balance it out). I also think it would have worked better as a lkate night soap--I know several ABC affiliates claimed to be getting better numbers showing it after Nightline or whatever. At the time it was also the only ABC soap that was slowly (ok, very slowly) improving in the ratings, when AMC, GH and especially OLTL were starting to slip--but it had already been essentially canceled.

I dunno, but I wish she would... But yeah the fact that there was zero AMC crossover whatsoever was pretty lame. I did like her on Loving (and especially City where her and Jacob helped cement the other characters), and it was about time the show got a Black presence (I know of course that Agnes wanted to bring Carla/Ellen Holly and I believe her mother too from OLTL over to Loving but Ellen saw that as kinda a diss).

And that's a great interview. I know HW and EPs are notorious for saying what we want to hear and not acting on it, but they did seem to have a clear idea what was missing--and you can see they were starting to fix that with Racy and other characters.

[SFK]

It was such a trip reading that part from JDB about, "I think our audience wants to see more generations", I was like, "Oh she SO got that from Lemay!"

[DRW50]

From the August 30, 1983 Digest.

[EricMontreal22]

Thanks to the heads up from you guys, today I actually looked through the videos an old family run DVD rental place I walk by was getting rid of (yes, they apparently rented VHS until just the other week) and... Found the Loving pilot! Not in the best shape, but watchable. I'll post my thoughts I'm sure after I watch it tomorrow.

The box is quite funny--it mentions from the creator of AMC and OLTL several times (though it says on the back "Story by Agnes Nixon, Teleplay by Douglas Marland and Patrick Mulcahey"). It also proudly brags that it's by the director, Michael Lindsay Hogg who did Brideshead Revisited which is a random fact I knew but had totally forgotten.

The video is copyrighted 1983 dramatic Creations, so much have come out early in the show's run and the back description is kinda funny. The first paragraph reads:

The movie stat started it all~! The romance, anger, greed and power. The movie that captivated millions with its mesmerising story and shocking love scenes. More powerful than DALLAS, more incestuous than DYNASTY!

Then the final line is:

The Forbes. The Aldens. Their dynasties will CONSUME you.

LOL I don't honestly expect any of that, but I'm excited to see it.

Edited March 23, 2011 by EricMontreal22

[DRW50]

I didn't know Mulcahey was at Loving. I wish he'd been at ATWT - he would have been great with Lucinda.

That line is hilarious. I don't even think the Forbes consumed the producers very much, didn't most of them only last a few years.

[Khan]

The hyped the crap out of that, didn't they?

[EricMontreal22]

I just finished the pilot... First of all, I pity any poor non soap fan who rented or bought this "movie" based on Bridges and Page's names, or that ridiculous blurb on the back. (The pilot has NO love scenes, though some making out and waking up in bed after fading to black and NO incest ) And it feels like an early 80s soap, more outdoor scenes, but I expected it to have the feel of a film, or at least Dynasty, not something shot on tape with basic sets.

That said I loved it fo course. The actors playing Lorna and Roger weren't very good, but everyone else was I thought, Page was campy and wonderful smoking away throughout, it did a good job of setting up the basic families and stories and rivalries and affairs, and I'm sure I would have tuned into the daily show after watching it--though the prostitution ring story for the "movie" was pretty obvious (despite a great brief cameo from Debbi Morgan before she's blown up [!]). It's interesting that it really sets up the main story as Merril Vocheck and her being torn between Roger Forbes and Doug Donovan, with Roger torn between Ann and Merill. But Merill, I get the feeling, was pretty quickly phased out of the show (which is a shame, she's well played and appealing even if she and Roger get some of the worst dialogue--she at least pulls it off despite Roger, who has a tiny couple of decent moments). Oh and we don't even see Stacy Dononvan, though we hear about her and meet the other Donovans and that kitchen set they show in the youtube 1984 episode.

They briefly introduce the slightly comic seeming, man's man Billy Bristow, the new coach, and his wife Rita Mae who has a bit of Opal Gardner or someone to her--she already seems to come on to Jack. I knew I recognized Rita Mae--it's the brilliant Pamela Blair who originated Val "Tits and Ass" in A Chorus Line (as well as Angel in Best Little Whorehouse and a ton of Broadway dance roles). These two seem like typical over the top Agnes Nixon creations--and I see they lasted till 1985, but I wonder if they ever got any story, I had never heard of either before in any synopsises or clips I had seen, which seems a waste at least of a great actress. (Apparently Pamela was also on Another World and was on AMC in 1985 as Maeda, which she won an Emmy for? I have no knowledge of the character...)

Interestingly, the whole thing reminded me of an 80s Peyton Place. Not as instantly compelling or well acted perhaps, but the music (which was often lovely, I wonder if the show kept the themes for long) and just something about the feel. While watching I had a friend who was sleeping in the same room, and he woke up for the second half and asked afterwards if that was a later Peyton Place, and he's only seen a handful of PP episodes when I've watched--so there must be some odd similarity. Anyway a lot of fun, and makes me wish I could see the early weeks of Loving all the more--ut yeah pretty shockingly scandalous that someone thought to try to sell it off as an actual "thrilling" movie.

[DRW50]

What a thorough summary. I never knew Debbi Morgan was in this. So she was killed?

I'm sure dc would know more about Rita Mae. Have you read any of the Digest summaries? If not then eventually I'm going to post most of those I have (not many) from the early/mid 80s and that might help. I've posted one or two.

It's strange to me how quickly they dumped Merrill. I'd love to know why. I remember reading a Digest letter from a fan praising them as one of daytime's best couples...

Your description of the cinematography is interesting.

So which Aldens were in this? This was before Clay/Trisha/Gwen right?

What did you think of Ann? Did Kiberd seem to be playing Trevor?

Edited March 24, 2011 by CarlD2

[EricMontreal22]

Kiberd was very early Trevor--they showed him having a thing/jealousy about his brother being a fancy professor (Doug, played by the excellent Bryan Kranston--sp) and a slight drinking prob but beign a good cop--no mention of his Vietnam backstory but obviously they're hinting at something (they mention the Donovon dad being in the hospital, I think he was killed offscreen?) And you see his wife Noreen briefly but more interacting with her sister, Merill. I loved Merill and DOug's loft sets, btw--very vintage 80s soap (and the location shooting at the college is beautiful though I guess not followed through with).

I'll have to read the SOD summaries!

Debbi Morgan plays someone with a connection to the prostitutes, when she talks to Merill she gets into Merill's car which goes off in a fire bomb (it's a little contrived why Merill, waiting for Doug to pick her up, has her car there and tells Debbi's character to go in it).

I liked Ann very very much. She has an interesting slightly repressed or European air to her that's intriguing--in the way she talks even. And that gorgeous Alden Mansion set is there already.

The ALdens we see are Cabot and Isabelle (who is played by an actress I had never seen in the role--Meg something?), and then Ann's family with Roger Forbes--Lorna and Jack who shows up mid way through, that's it. Oh Lloyd Bridges plays John Forbes--who had a past with Page's character who is now a secretary at the College (and SPOILER

kills John at the end when it's discovered she helped facilitate the hooker ring--partly as revenge on Roger who she felt dropped her and her love to focus on his son, which is a little rushed, it might have been nice if they could have got Page and Bridges to stick around for the show's first month).

Oh and Garth Slater is shown--he was acting President of Alden College for a year as an interim, but is unhappy because Cabot picks his son in law Roger to get the poistion, pushing Garth back to Dean. Page's character, Abigale, is his faithful secretary and it's hinted that Garth is the villain--and of course later we find out he is a creep with the incest story, but his wife and daughter aren't mentioned yet. I'm sure they were introduced that week or a week later.

I do think that, while not amazing, the Lorna actress has improved immensely by that Feb 1984 online episode.

Edited March 24, 2011 by EricMontreal22

[EricMontreal22]

ANd interestingly that Aug 30 summary you posted seems to pick up right where the movie ended--I guess it was the first month of summaries?

[DRW50]

Yes, it must have been, since it had the cast list. That would be for two weeks I think?

Lorna was played by Susan Walters, who went on to a lot of primetime, and was Diane on Y&R off and on until last year.

Meg Mundy played Isabelle. You may remember her from AMC as Gillian's Aunt Eugenia.

Did they mention any AIDS research yet?

What did you think of this Ann compared to Callan White?