Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[Paul Raven]

Meg Mundy ,who had been on The Doctors for years as Mona played Isabelle in the pilot. Wonder why she didn't continue? She later turned up on AMC as (I (think) Gillian's grandmother Eugenia

[DRW50]

So apparently Tom Ligon played Billy Bristow? The 12/4/84 Digest lists him as leaving the show, along with Bryan Crantson/Doug and Lesley Vogel/Edy Donovan.

[Paul Raven]

The first cast casualties were Shannon Eubanks as Ann,replaced by Callan White ,John Shearin replaced by Peter Brown ,Teri Keane replaced by Dorothy Stinette Noah Keen as Patrick Donovan replaced by George L Smith all in 84.

Cranston as Doug was out in 84 and Victor Bevine took over.Marilyn McIntyre was written out in 84 and a new Noreen was cast in 85(Elizabeth Burr)

The first Tony (Peter Radon) was replaced by Richard McWilliams.

All the Slaters were out in 84.

That level of cast changes spoke of panic to me. It seems the blame was on the actors because the ratings were not great.

[DRW50]

It still baffles me that anyone would fire Bryan Crantson.

Were any of the recasts popular or that important?

[SFK]

I wonder if Meg Mundy had just had her face done because she looks rather youthful in the movie, perhaps too youthful to be Ann's mother (maybe that's what facilitated the recast). I agree with Eric, I guess it was earlier in this thread I said Ann reminded me of how I heard Harding Lemay's characters in L&F/FRFP described. She had a quiet, patrician tone, like an actress playing Ibsen or Strindberg.

[SFK]

And isn't Geraldine Page's Amelia great with her hats and black cigarettes? My favorite moment is when she hangs up the phone with Johnny and does this quick little Methody sigh/flinch/tender stroke of the phone as though it were him.

[EricMontreal22]

She's wonderful, but I adore her always. Whereas Bridges does well but plays it straight, Page is full on camp.

I didn't see much of Meg (how long did she last?) but she did look too young. I loved her as Eugenia on AMC though--and woulda never put two and two together...

Did they fire Cranston or did he leave on his own? Maybe when Meril was leaving they thought there was no use for him--but it seems odd (and odd they ditched both characters, frankly--ah if only we knew the behind the scenes stuff on early Loving).

You're dead on about Ann's style, and Carl while I've seen very little of either Ann, I think I prefered her in the pilot (where I've seen much more of her). At least I did really like her (though it took a couple of scenes before I decided that). I find it odd if she was replaced and didn't leave on her own, but I guess weirder things have happened.

Now I realize why I recognized Lorna, she certainly did improve as an actress. How long was she on?

[SFK]

Augusta Dabney is listed as Isabelle in that very first episode description I pasted so I guess Meg Mundy only did the movie. And like you, I would have never put two and two together, it's was long after Grandmother Eugenia (who oddly seemed less exotic and foreign than Gillian to be fair, Esta's South African) and seeing the Loving movie that I realized the connection.

[DRW50]

I think Susan Walters was on the show for about two years. She left, I assume, of her own choice, as the character was recast with O'Hara Parker, who was written out with John Gabriel in 1986 or 1987.

[Paul Raven]

O' Hara Parker left acting and went to work for designers Badgley-Mischka as she is the sister of one of the two (can't remember which).

Edited March 25, 2011 by Paul Raven

[EricMontreal22]

Oh and Carl, forgot to say, no they didn't mention Naureen's AIDS research or even her job yet.

I was thinking of the shocking number of recasts in the first year, but this actually seemed to be fairly common on soaps back in the day--Agnes Nixon has a bit of a rep for it--OLTL had a few, and AMC had a number of major recasts in the first few months. I suppose it's better, if you feel they're not working out, to do it sooner rather than later...

[dc11786]

I didn't copy the quotes. I just sort of replied to what I felt like. I hope this doesn't come across as too random.

Would it be shocking by 1980s standards that Roger was willing to leave his homemaker wife, a bit cold fish, but not an outright bitch, for a younger successful career woman? Roger and Merrill were cheating on their respective partners and the audience was suppose to root for them.

Carl, you make a valid point regarding the Forbes clan, but I don't think this was the intention. Roger Forbes was killed off fairly early on (March / April 1983), but I think the intention was to bring him back. Roger perished in a plane crash; no body was recovered. When the family mourned, it was at a memorial service because there was nothing to bury. Roger's death allowed Dane Hammond to hone in on Ann Alden Forbes. Plus, Roger's return would have been a great upset to the Dane / Ann marriage and Dane's plans for Alden Enterprises. If Roger returned, I wonder if he would have become involved with Shana Sloane. They shared legal backgrounds and Shana was Ann's sister. I feel that whole situation would have been ripe for conflict.

I think Merrill was written out in March 1984 taking a job at a television station in D.C. She had brief romantic pairings with both the Alden family lawyer Clem Margolies and Corinth district attorney Warren Hodges, who would later become Noreen's love interest post-Mike.

Tom Lignon's Billy Bristow left in Decemer 1984 or January 1985. He and Rita Mae were on the outs at the time and he took a job at a Southern university coaching football. When Rita Mae went to reconcile, she found a half-naked co-ed at the door. Rita Mae was heartbroken and later learned Billy married the girl.

Pamela Blair's Rita Mae lasted a little longer. After Billy, she had an affair with a younger man, Tony Perilli. Rita Mae left in the summer of 1985. Nixon didn't seem to have any story in mind for her and dumped her.

Early on, Rita Mae tended to have a bit more romantic stories as Billy was tied up with the college. In the opening week, Rita Mae made a play for Jim Vochek. I suspect this was used to reveal Jim's profession: Catholic priest. Obviously, Rita Mae's seduction failed. By August, Rita Mae fooled around with Curtis Alden, thinking he was Jack Forbes. Rita Mae felt foolish by Curtis' deception. In the fall, Rita Mae became involved in the Faculty Follies show with Doug Donovan. There seemed to be a bit of flirtation there, but nothing came of it.

In 1984, Billy and Rita Mae tried to conceive a child. First, Rita Mae was diagnosed with fertility problems, and later Billy had them as well. This story was praised in a soap book from around that time, but it sounded rather contrived to me. No pregnancy resulted from this story.

Rita Mae did have an additional connection to the canvas. In July 1984, her niece Colby Cantrell arrived in Corinth. She was a buyer for Burnell's department store. Curtis was smitten with her and a romance developed. In the fall, it was revealed Curtis had financed pornographic films during his European days, he returned home the first week of 'Loving.' Some of those films starred Sasha Hale, the spokesmodel for Burnell's. Colby was devastated and turned to Keith Lane, Jonathan Maitland's twin brother.

The Donovan father, Patrick, was the head of security at Alden University. Patrick's heart problems led him to step down and Mike assumed his father's duties. Mike was eventually fired.

The AIDS research was talked about in July 1983, but it seems to be mentioned as yet another thing Noreen and Mike fight about.

Regarding the cast situation, one book said Shearin was out after three months and Peter Brown came in. John Cunningham also would have been out in 1983 as Garth was murdered in November. Eubanks was out by the time Brown left because Callan White appeared in the Washington, D.C. remote during Roger's funeral.

Doug was gone in December 1984, but Victor Bevine didn't arrive until September 1985. He was playing Peter Crane on "The Catlins" when Cranston left "Loving."

June and Lily Slater left town in late January 1984.

Merill left in March. Doug was around until the end of the year. When Merrill and Roger split, Doug and Merrill didn't reconcile. I suspect someone didn't like Merrill and saw her as a homewrecker. By the end of 1983, Roger and Ann were going to make a go of their marriage and Roger took over a seat in Congress. Merrill floundered before she was written out and she was the serial's lead heroine. I think she was tainted by the infidelity.

Doug spent 1984 involved in a byzantine Doug Marland murder mystery plot involving Edy Lester Donovan, his sudden wife, and Jonathan Maitland, her not-so-former husband. I think Edy and Doug had known each other once before, remet, and suddenly married. Edy was a woman with a past and Doug had been hired to pen some television series in California. Edy's past arrived in the form of Jonathan Maitland, a shady man who she claimed was her brother, but really he was her husband. In California, Edy had been a private nurse for some very upscale people who died under mysterious circumstances. It looked like Edy had offed her wealthy patients for their money, but really it was Jonathan who had been doing it. While Doug investigated, Jonathan went around killing off all the witness and remaining patients. It was a rather bizarre story as it seems to be told in its own sphere with limited interaction. Doug Donovan also had a writing partner, Stephanie Smith, who I suspect was intended as the person Doug would turn to when Edy / Jonathan's past was revealed. Nothing came of it though. Jonathan and Edy both died at the end of the story and Doug left town to grieve for his wife.

I think Susan Walters left "Loving" during the murder trial. The Italian youtube clips take Lorna up to right around the time of the murder. O'Hara Parker would have played all the post-trial stuff: falling for Zach, befriending Lotty, and becoming a free woman again.

[DRW50]

Thanks. You can always be counted on to know these wonderful details.

I wonder why they even bothered to bring Doug back.

Do you think writing him out was an ABC or Marland decision?

[EricMontreal22]

dc--as always your post is very welcome.

I think Ann seems sympathetic in the Roger equation--in the movie they show her mad at him and his affair with a Countess... And then he pulls her aside and says he only always thought of her--and they have a love scene! Clip a few months later and he's putting the moves on Merrill, with some of the worst dialogue I have ever heard. I think part of the reason is he was a bad actor (glad they replaced him, though I haven't seen the replacement) That's where the pilot let me down (should I blame Marland and Mulcahey and their screenplay and not Nixon?) We see that Merrill worshipped him from a flashback and a book but I would have bought their awkward love scene in spade, if they had only shown us one scene of them being past lovers. Instead it kinda undermined Merrill's character that she would fall so hard when in the same room-though her scene where denies him are well done.

Totally un-loved opinion but more and more I wonder if Loving would have done better with more Nixon and less Marland--the mix, oddly and interestingly, just didn't seem to mix.

[DRW50]

I wonder if Marland would have been better off if he had stayed with established shows he could reshape in his own image. Nixon seemed to have more of a forte for creating shows.

Something that I think viewers had a harder time with than the shows anticipated was the whole "sympathetic adultery" story. The only time I can remember this being overly popular with viewers was the Jill/Katherine/Phillip story on Y&R. I remember how awful it was on Ryan's Hope with Frank/Jill/Delia.