Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[DRW50]

Thank you so much for all this information! Just fascinating. Colby and Rita Mae? Really?

So I guess Babbin killed off Jim Vockek and his son with Shana? I wonder if that was a mistake.

I remember that SOD said when Shana and Leo were fired that Alex and Ava replaced them, essentially, in the story. To me that seems odd because I thought Shana and Ava were very different.

I'd like to see the story with Lily and the homeless people. I am always fascinated by truncated strike stories. I wonder if they had planned to write Lily out right after the crazy stuff and she just hung on or if they had plans which never happened.

[dc11786]

Jim and Shana were one of the show's big couples, but, most likely, had exhausted their story possibilities together. Babbin wanted to move Shana out of the business world and get her working with social issues, in particular victims' rights. Shana was big on looking into the faulty airplane parts that caused Jim and Jimmy's death. I beleive this story was later repeated on "All My Children" with Maria Santos Grey. I think moving Shana out of the corporate world isolated her. If Babbin tied Shana's work to the lower class, maybe there could have been more interaction between Shana and Kate and the rest of Kate's extended family

The homeless shelter story involved an abusive husband. The woman's name was Mei Ling and her son's name was Timmy. Jim Vochek was involved as was Lily. Lily also helped a child by playing the piano. Whether or not there were plans for Lily post-psycho stalker affair is unclear to me. The strike happened just as the Jack / Lily affair was being exposed. Rick / Stacey were still to come and played out over the summer. One would think Lily would stick around to keep the Rick / Stacey / Jack / Lily quad going.

Leo / Shana were a rather comical couple. Leo Burnell was introduced as Ava's mystery boss at Burnells'. He was seen watching her from the store cameras and making one-sided phone conversations with his assistant Basil. Addie Walsh was headwriter at the time and Haidee Granger had just been brought on to EP. Granger / Walsh clashed and Walsh left the show. I think Walsh intended to reintroduce Curtis Alden as Ava's mystery boss. As you can tell from the summary you posted, Burnells' had been around since the 1980s and was an Alden property. Leo Burnell claimed he had founded the store in order to win over Ava.

Granger acted as interim headwriter in the summer of 1992 until Robert Guza / Millee Taggert were brought on to write the show in September. Leo was introduced in late July during Granger's stint as EP / HW. I think Granger didn't know what to do with Curtis or a Curtis / Ava pairing. Instead, Leo entered as a man with expensive tastes who was wooing Ava around the world. I don't understand why this character couldn't have been Curtis. It would have made sense given the hints that Leo / Clay may have been behind Jack's disappearance.

In terms of Leo / Shana's story function, they were mainly a comical / stable couple. Shana decided she wanted a baby and considered artifical insemination. I believe Leo agreed to donate his specimen, but Ava (his girlfriend) didn't like the idea and messed with it. Eventually, Leo and Shana slept together and conceived a baby the old fashioned way. Ava was determined to hold onto Leo so she claimed she was pregnant. Around this time, the idea of a Stacey / Jeremy pairing was dropped and Jeremy acted as Ava's conscience while she faked the pregnancy. Later, Ava / Jeremy hooked up while Leo / Shana dealt with a complicated pregnancy. Angie Hubbard's first story involved treating a pregnant Shana. Once baby Patti was born, I don't think Leo / Shana had much story. They were the town's requisite happy couple. Ava and Alex had similar banter, I assume. Ava / Alex got a bit more story when Ava slept with Jeremy's twin brother Gilbert who was masquerading as Jeremy. Gilbert kidnapped Ava and was killed. I read they introduced Gilbert because Lisa Peluso / Jean LeClerc had awesome chemistry but Ava / Jeremy were a mismatch.

[DRW50]

Shana was an Alden right? Did she have a lot of interaction with them? Do you think they were right to fire her?

I remember SOD saying that Lisa Peluso and Jean le Clerc had no chemistry the first time around and had no more the second.

I never knew about Jeremy/Stacey. It seemed like Stacey was in a flux after Jack was written out. How long was it between then and Buck's arrival?

Do you think the show should have considered putting Stacey on The City? I wonder if The City might have had more of a chance if they'd brought in more long-term vets. I remember that I resisted The City for a while when I knew Ava wasn't going to be there.

Edited March 5, 2011 by CarlD2

[EricMontreal22]

A pretty standard Agnes Nixon plot--I didn't realize it happened during her return as HW, but it makes sense.

[EricMontreal22]

SHana was an illegitimate Alden, though she was absorbed into the clan but always kinda an outsider.

I think Stacy was kinda in a flux after Jack. The story with Clay making her think she saw his ghost (with, from what my 11 year old mind can remember--hologram projectors lol) was pretty far fetched (though not as far fetched as Ava doing a low budget version of Vicki's trip to Heaven or the infamous devil storyline). Still, I was sad to see the only original cast member--who had never really been too central but always a likeable presence--go in the murders. But I guess they did that partly to show they meant business.

Jeremy IMHO never fit with anyone at Loving. The long trek with Ava where they ran from that GH villain (?) had cute/funny moments and went nowhere. I liked the character, and was glad they brought him over from AMC in a way, but except for Hannah crushing on him, he never had much of a use, and the evil twin story was not particularly well done. Angie, for example, fit in on the show much more immediately.

I was shocked Ava wasn't going to The City (though Alex had many conversations with her off camera). For the most part, with the distance of time, I can say that I think they brought the right people to The City, but it probably would have brought more Loving viewers over if they had brought in a few core/older members. Then again, City's ratings were virtually the same as Loving's, so maybe at that point it didn't matter at all?

[DRW50]

Faison. A great Guza story, huh I think he also wrote Dinah Lee/Ava on the run.

I think it would have helped if they'd brought a few vets in for a while, because I think that they did get new viewers, but they also lost viewers IMO, as they gave Loving viewers little reason to want to stay tuned, and in some ways you might say they even sent a message to Loving viewers not to keep watching.

[SFK]

Interestingly enough, I didn't think much about Ava not continuing to The City at the time. I did find the Tess/Sydney dynamic very interesting, the whole "two bitches are better than one" dynamic as I was more accustomed to a traditional Erica/Brooke or Viki/Dorian thing. They got out of Tess what they would have most likely gone for with Ava plus Ava was no longer a twentysomething and *gasp* a mother of young children and that really wasn't what they seemed to be going for. Tess had the glamorous modeling agency angle. Now of course Steffi was pregnant and Angie and Jacob tried to adopt Kayla, but that's different. Alex was freed up for Jocelyn.

[DRW50]

I think the problem for me was I never cared for Alex/Jocelyn and I thought Tess was sort of at loose ends much of the time (which I guess is why they threw her at Buck eventually). I remember they had it where Ava was keeping the kids from Alex, or whatever, and some fans were upset about that. The City was in such transition in those early months and I think they could have used more stability. It was something they didn't really get until Tracy arrived, which was too late.

If they weren't going to have any of the old guard like Ava or Stacey then I would have kept Deborah around for a while.

Edited March 5, 2011 by CarlD2

[SFK]

Deborah was always fun and I was glad that they at least gave her a happy ending hitting the lottery and buying the Alden mansion (though that's kind of sad and creepy in a way they could have done a Dark Shadows-like series with all the ghosts ). Jocelyn was an... interesting character. Not super charismatic by any means, but interesting because they told us she was with her past of hooking and all. And yet she never annoyed me or anything. I feel like the modern day equivalent of a character like her is what we end up getting with someone like Inez on OLTL. LL is an interesting performer because she's so unobtrusive and inoffensive and never really makes a big splash, she kind of acts under the radar, it's an (again) interesting quality.

[DRW50]

I thought LL was fine as Jocelyn, and I like the idea of the toxic upbringing of Danny and Jocelyn and how it affected them (if The City was going to do "shocking" stories then I think an incest story between them might have made more sense than the stuff with Azure and with the racism story). I just didn't think she and Alex were a great match, they were both too droll and detached.

[dc11786]

Nixon was the headwriter when Shana and Leo left town. The cast was getting quite large at the time when Shana and Leo were written out. On the other hand, the show was just about to bring Cabot back. Why not keep Shana around? I think there would have been more drama had Shana discovered Cabot and agreed to keep his secret pitting her against the family.

If Nixon had stayed, I suspect Ava would have been given complete control of Alden Enterprises, not just Burnells'. Shana would have certainly fought for the company and most likely had Alex on her side. Alex was close to the Aldens from his years as Clay. Shana's departure was premature.

When Jeremy arrived in Corinth, it was clear he was intended for Stacey. Jeremy was working at the University where Stacey was teaching a writing course. Stacey was being drugged by Clay Alden into marriage and Clay later had her thrown into a mental hospital. Clay was looking to get his hands on the inheritance he was promised. Jeremy had psychic abilities which I believe came into play during the storyline. After Clay's plot was unveiled, I think Stacey / Jeremy were still friendly. Hannah Mayberry, who was ditched from the core younger set when Stephanie Brewster arrived, briefly had a thing for Jeremy and then later accused him of sexual harassment. I believe Stacey worked with Jeremy to help clear him. By this point, Jeremy was moving into Ava's orbit and Stacey went back onto the backburner.

Buck Huston arrived in March 1993 just as Trisha was being written out of the story. Buck was part of Curtis Alden's return plot. Buck and Curtis had served together in the Gulf War. Buck was a pilot who had helped Curtis save Tess Wilder Partou, a beautiful woman married to a dangerous man. A Curtis / Tess / Buck triangle had played out during the War, but neither man had ended up with her. Despite this complicated backstory, Curtis was paired with Dinahlee, Buck with Gwyn, and Tess seem to sleep with any Alden man she could get her hands on at the moment.

I think Stacey / Buck were couple around September 1993. In August, Buck / Gwyn had been involved in an airplane crash. By the fall, Stacey was fighting her former mother-in-law for Buck and Gwyn announced she was pregnant. Gwyn lost the baby as Buck / Gwyn planned to elope. Clay convinced Gwyn not to go through with it.

"The City" wanted to distance itself from "Loving." I don't think they would have ever really considered taking any of them along with them. I wonder if they would have played things differently if Michael Weatherly, Amelia Heinle, and Paul Anthony Stewart had decided to stay with the show.

Eric, the Ava in Heaven plot was fairly well liked by the online audience of the time. Plus, wasn't it just Ava / Harry in heaven playing cards with Ava learning a couple of spoilers which were meant to entice the audience to keep them around. The problem was Nixon left and a lot of that stuff got dropped (re: Dinahlee dying and Ava inheriting the Alden fortune).

From what I've read, I agree that Jeremy never really fit on the show. They tried Stacey / Jeremy, Ava / Jeremy, and Gwyn / Jeremy to limited success. Did they try Tess / Jeremy or were they simply business associates?

[EricMontreal22]

I liked Jocelyn and her incest storyline a lot--partly as she was never really played as the victim, yet, as you say, wasn't annoying either...

The Azure and racism story I think were wen City was trying (as Gottlieb's OLTL recently had) with sorta shocking short term storylines. It was a mistake (as was doing a sub par retread oif the Loving Murders so soon) but the show found its footing about 6-8 months in.

[EricMontreal22]

Ha let it be said that I loved the Dante Partou story with Curtis his little "pet" in the cage--Agnes at her Gotchic wackiest. You're right about the Heaven stuff, I was exagerating. I believe there was another threat to a character mentioned in heaven which again came to nothing...

Don't remember Tess and Jeremy being paired... I mainly remember him briefly with Stacey, the Ava on the run story, the Hannah sexual harrassment story and Gilbert, his twin.

[LoyaltoAMC]

Can someone summarize the Carter Jones crossover story? I know that Jeremy and Ceara had crossed over before Jeremy's permanent transplant, must've been 1991. Was that in connection with Carter Jones, or was that for something else? I distinctly remember some Loving characters (Trucker, Trisha and some others) appearing at Jeremy and Ceara's wedding on AMC, which must've been early or mid 92. Timelines are a bit hazy.

Edited March 6, 2011 by LoyaltoAMC

[EricMontreal22]

Ceara ran away to Corinth due to a fight with Jeremy--I believe she went to stay at Kate's boarding house. This was Fall 1991 (nov maybe?) and Jeremy went back to get her--Kate and Ally and others helped set them back together, I know WOST had one episode of Loviong from this era where they're locked in together in Kate's garage or tool shed or something. I had JUST started watching AMC around this time, and tuned into Loving for the cross over but still at the time wasn't too familiar with AMC's characters, and didn't get hooked permanently on Loving till the following Summer's Carter story.

Off the top of my head, and briefly, Carter came to AMC terrorizing the new DA Galen (who was never really a fleshed out character though I think she was played by two different actresses--I remember one of the first times I heard an announcement in a soap about a recast, it was for her)--who had been his wife I believe. Trevor started helping Galen out with Carter, and in retribution Carter set fire to Trevor's house--which caused Natalie (soon to be NuNatalie with the rather dull Melody Anderson) to go blind. Carter felt guilty and (this is where my memory gets hazy) befriended a blind Natalie who couldn't recognize him, passing himself off as her nurse where he fell in love/obsessed with her. He eventually had her kidnapped to a houseboat. Meanwhile Hannaha nd Dinah Lee from Loving came to AMC to stay at Myrtle's boarding house--she was an old friend, and it turned out that Carter was from DInah Lee's past as well (I think--maybe it was Hannah's...)

Anyway this all led up to a week long cross over on Loving where Carter ended up being chased to Corinth--I believe he tries to attack Dinah Lee in Pins and Jeremy and Trevor come in the nick of time. There was also a cute scene where Trevor meets Shana (his wife in real life) and they mention feeling sorry for anyone who marries them. WOST did post one episode at the end of the story--I wonder if I saved it? Anyway, Jeremy decides to stay in Corinth... And yes some Loving characters made cameos at that Spring 1992 wedding--later on on Loving, Myrtle showed up at Dinah lee's wedding I think )It was held at the Alden mansion).

What I *never* got is when Angie from AMC moved to Loving, they never introuced her briefly first back on AMC to give fans of that show an idea she was back before moving her to Loving. Just seemed oddly done.

Edited March 9, 2011 by EricMontreal22