Vee

Perhaps we can start giving BTG more grace and respect by asking people in this thread not to call it "officially trash" before it even airs, and spamming it with videos that call Michele Val Jean, a legendary soap scribe with decades of great work, 'a bootlicker'. But that's just my take.

Does anyone know WEHT Tony's Place, where he, Wanda, etc. work in the '70s? Did it end up being handed over to Wanda as one of her many future establishments? Reinholt is quite good with Marilyn Chris and Lee Patterson (who he allegedly drove nuts). If he hadn't been so self-destructive he could've had a strong safe harbor at the show for many years.

Was it new material? Thrilling to see them locked in for the soaps.

Tess Wilder made Lindsay Rappaport on OLTL look like a whiny drip, and I liked latter-years Lindsay. But Tess is possibly Cat Hickland's sharpest work. They would've had to humanize her a bit, because on LOV '95 she was ice cold lol. But I haven't seen much of TC in many years. I do feel bad about Stacey and Curtis - I don't think they had to die. I do think the pre-Murders story with Lisa Brown(??) as an evil FBI agent is comical and silly, from what I've seen.

Can you pinpoint when in the early '90s? I'm always trying to hone in on classic AMC more, since I only started watching in '93. And the '80s has so many permutations that it confuses me as to when Agnes and her acolytes were in charge or weren't.

It would've been very, very easy to recast Frannie/Sabrina at any point in the last 20 or so years. They didn't do it because they didn't care.

I don't remember if you were here when some of us marathon-rewatched the Loving Murders in their uncut entirety back in COVID 2020 (and I rambled on about it for page after page), but the bizarre episode where Clay enters a virtual reality simulation/dream/fantasy? of his perfect Father Knows Best life with his wife and children (complete with little Trisha saying she's always wanted to go to Paris) is dark, surreal and genuinely unsettling. I totally understand people's issues with the arc and some of the characters or transitions to The City, but I think the murder saga coupled with the absolutely dynamite frontburner Black quadrangle of Lorraine/Charles/Angie/Jacob make it one for the books. (Even if I became an Alex/Ava stan during the rewatch, despite my love for Lisa Lo Cicero and her '90s bleach-red hair as Jocelyn ever since first watching LOV/TC as a teen.) I also think the nihilism and evil is as baked into the show in a way as its many cozy, warm elements from the early '90s, because I think the evil side of Corinth goes as far back as the pilot and the very creepy one-shot story of Lloyd Bridges and Geraldine Page's characters that kicked the whole show off. I don't think it ever fully shook it, especially in the '90s as you saw more and more of Gothic Agnes (or Guza, or others). Loving begins with murder and familial secrets and trauma (incest, etc.) and ends the same way.

As I said a few months back in here, the episodes were so dour that they were hilarious. But also very worth watching! I'm glad there's more here. Incidentally, MST is in another hiatus period atm but they've recently done many more shorts again; if they ever somehow got access to public domain soaps again I'd love to see it.

All essential stuff. I never thought I'd see this much of that early period outside of the eps that used to run before the movies on Mystery Science Theater 3000, lol.

So much for them gushing 'we're so back' to each other at the first Trump II presser the other day (yes, this actually happened in the briefing room).

I have my doubts Hayley will be presented sympathetic at the outset, as they introduce the players. I think it may deepen over time. But I can see it happening.

What exactly was the Willows storyline and what happened? Who wrote it? Something about Lisa and a bookstore?

Like I said: He was fine as a cheater on Queen Sugar and he's fine here! I still think he and Dani might end up back together. But I share both of your suspicions re: Hayley. I guess we'll see.

I can definitely see the appeal of taking it all away (the house, etc). It's happened for Dorian before. I do agree about early D&D. I do think David could still work scheming in a more serious vein again (with humor or even buffoonery sometimes still). Tuc is certainly still very skilled and I have my doubts he would turn up his nose at doing the soaps from time to time even now - he seems very fond of them. Unfortunately GH fans would rightly riot over more of those crossovers and there's no place for OLTL atm. And yes, I think an alternate history where Pinkerton had remained is fascinating. The key moment for me that's particularly striking is when she wakes from the dream about Joe (and Matt) crying "I will get what I want!" And you get the sense she has no idea what that is. I would love to see her Dorian with Melinda, or the earlier stuff at the hospital (Mark Toland, etc).

It was Malone II who made Dorian and David a major thing and solidified them, and early on it was fairly earnest and I thought it really worked. I still like or liked them together, and I think Tuc always showed up. I did get very tired of the Cramer Women/La Boulaie slogans, but I don't mind the house or the overall trappings if the various slogans are quieted down (similar to the Quartermaines on GH when they cut back on the it's-my-house gag or the pizza or Tracy-bashing). It doesn't help that Robin was often playing for the rafters, but I don't think she ever lost Dorian or who she was so much as she lost her willingness to modulate (and the writing didn't help). I do think seeing Nancy Pinkerton, finally, gives us a look at the earliest core and allows us to find Dorian unpredictable again, partly by way of novelty. It is a spellbinding performance, as I said a few posts back. But I wouldn't count Robin out with the right material and direction, or even a little.

I've said it before, but I blame the utter turmoil BTS, and clear conflict over what stories to do or which characters to cut, for the ratings bleed and general inertia that played out during a lot of that period. That and the fact that they clearly gambled (unwisely once again) that Jason and Laura's Carly would rake in the viewers and it didn't happen, which left the show rudderless. That situation may have had many mothers or fathers, but the solution wasn't to make the show even flightier and more insubstantial. And don't get me started on the Kai/Trina saga or Private Benjamin (BLQ).

I remember the redacted Billy Clyde stuff. I always suspected Dimitri myself. The final eps(?) seemed to suggest a turn towards insanity with her (very well-shot) dreams and visions while Pete was beginning to reconnect with Sal Stowers' Cassandra. I did love that the show remembered and used the fact that Pete, Colby and Cassandra were all part of Brown and Esensten's shortlived youth scene together in the late 2000s.

I'm glad those got to you. Thanks.

No, I don't mind the OP at all. It might be a good idea for comparing and contrasting shows of the '70s (especially the P&G shows). I am still going to keep single show-specific talk to the classic threads for each though.

I think the key is that Karen's Tina was really an evolved version of Andrea's in a lot of ways, for the more earthy and socially conscious '90s Malone and Gottlieb pursued. She really channels so much of Andrea's bubbly, fast-talking energy in her performance but also changes it up. She was great. That said, everything I've seen of Andrea outside of '80s (and 2010s) Tina makes me think she could've modulated given the opportunity - at times her personality IRL in interviews seemed like night and day, voice and everything. It was fascinating. I know nothing of Cali Timmins' work though she allegedly came thisclose to being cast as the umpteenth Tina in 2003 in Malone II (in what did not sound like a great story). I should look into it.

Did I miss a beat or did someone say in this thread (or another, we've been all over the shop in various threads today) that Agnes consulted on The City? I can't find the mention now. I know Jane Elliot apparently had some BTS role while also appearing on-air, and I know Linda Gottlieb was involved in the Loving Murders (and maybe TC) production-wise.

Oh, I think the February '90 ep I saw where Ruth's mother (Vivian?) finally moves into the Whitmore(?) house is very, very strong. I'm dying to see more of that storyline and period - not everything on YT is clearly dated so it's hard to know where to look at times. I was referring more to the very early eps after the show's debut in spring-summer '89, which plod along for me so far and seem very dull. I'm also very impressed with Ruth/Pringle in everything I've seen. It is especially fascinating to me how they went from having Pat Crowley's staid (IMO) Rebecca as a centerpiece of the pilot narrating it to being completely absent for a long stretch of the show's run til they bring in Dorothy Lyman as a ringer/apparently temporary celebrity guest in the final weeks. I've said it before but I really do wonder what had been on the books for her originally (and I'm sure you've answered, so I'll go back and look at your old posts lol).

Thanks so much for all this. The Doreen/Ruth friendship did seem strong in eps I've seen, and later Joan Pringle(?) does such a good job conveying Ruth's hurt and heartbreak with her back to Doreen as her now ex-friend struggles to apologize in the big reveal episode over the baby. You can tell it's killing Ruth too but she won't back down. It's a real shame - the show seemed to develop much stronger bones IMO than the early '89 eps conveyed. Do we know if Taurean Blacque was simply dumped for a bigger daytime name (Reynolds), as had seemed to play out with several roles, or did something else go down there?

With Tomlin and Whitesell? I can imagine.

I have to be the one to say it: Please tell me some Dem is ready to pounce on the tragic crash #2 in Philadelphia now as well, and hard. It's what the GOP would do to them and hang it around our neck for 4-8 years. The tone coming out of AOC and a few other leading Dems has been appropriately raw and unfiltered (for once) in the last couple days after how Trump handled the first crash back home. That has to continue. We are fully in a UFC politics era. More from CBS.