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ajsp35801

Y&R: RIP Kristoff St John

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29 minutes ago, DeeeDee said:

It's interesting to see so many posters pay 'respect' to KSJ & Neil when for decades all they ever did was insult him, insist he be written off and/or replaced with any number of other Black actors/characters.

My issue was never with KSJ, but it lied solely with the character and the writing. The breaking point was with Neil/Hillary/Devon in which Neil's character was completely destroyed (hard to believe after the Carmen Mesta mess, I'm still upset over that story and how it painted both Neil and Dru). Later on when the show tried to backtrack and make Neil morally superior to Hillary when she and Devon were having problems, the damage was apparent as viewers couldn't take such scenes seriously. 

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9 minutes ago, Khan said:

 

Same here.  I cop to seeing Neil as boring and KSJ as not much of an actor.  (Perhaps, if I were to be completely honest with myself, I still see both that way.)  However, that was before I saw not just Neil/KSJ but the entire AA cast contingent on Y&R being shoved aside for those precious Rosaleses.  If you gotta write off Neil/KSJ and whoever else because you think you've hit a wall with them, fine.  But don't do it because you think you can swap out a bunch of Black characters and actors with a bunch of Hispanic (or Hispanic-looking) ones, chase after one demographic and to hell with the one who helped put you on top, and think no one will notice or care.

 

The more I examined Neil and KSJ, the more I realized how valuable both were to the show and to their fans.  Like I've said before, Neil Winters was different even among AA male characters on soaps, because even though he was educated and front-burner like some others, he was allowed to "play" in an arena of soaps (namely, the business/conglomerate sectors) that has been off-limits to most others like him.  That's huge -- and now that he's gone, that's likely over.

 

*Like*

 

I've always been a staunch supporter of the winters family and their connections and stories there in. Even I had gotten to the point where I thought it was time for the character to play supporting. I fell fir the show's game 

 

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37 minutes ago, DeeeDee said:

It's interesting to see so many posters pay 'respect' to KSJ & Neil when for decades all they ever did was insult him, insist he be written off and/or replaced with any number of other Black actors/characters.

 

I never cared for Neil or KSJ without Dru and I have no challenges copping to that.  I'm allowed and can't anticipate a tragedy to change my feelings.  


That said, I can hate a character, dislike the actor but still feel terrible that he suffered and didn't make it.  

 

Super happy we got that out of the way.  

 

Back on topic.  I won't be watching to see KSJ's last eppy because it was not filmed in anticipation of his death.  It was a send off because they are fazing out the black people!  

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3 hours ago, ajsp35801 said:

Tank saying that KSJ recently pitched him goes right in line with VR saying that KSJ pitched story after story that was denied. Had to point that out because I know some think she's a loon out of touch with reality. 

But was the pitch for his own character? TPTB nevah allow an actor to write for their own character. They didn't even let Meg Bennett do that. 

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11 minutes ago, DeeeDee said:

 

Not really. Y&R just made Cane the Barber/Winters patriarch.

 

And fans never liked how they stuffed this white man in the center of Winters  and made him THE lead. That's my original point. Lily/CK is/was held back herself just by different methods 

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1 minute ago, ajsp35801 said:

 

And fans never liked how they stuffed this white man in the center of Winters  and made him THE lead. That's my original point. Lily/CK is/was held back herself just by different methods 

She was held back by lack of talent. 

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4 minutes ago, alphanguy74 said:

But was the pitch for his own character? TPTB nevah allow an actor to write for their own character. They didn't even let Meg Bennett do that. 

 

I don't know what the story was or for whom. I only pointed it out to validate VRs interview since she's often times castigated for speaking out. 

 

I'm not sure I believe characters aren't allowed to pitch stories for their own character. VR pitched Devon's foster care story and got it. 

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2 minutes ago, ajsp35801 said:

 

I don't know what the story was or for whom. I only pointed it out to validate VRs interview since she's often times castigated for speaking out. 

 

I'm not sure I believe characters aren't allowed to pitch stories for their own character. VR pitched Devon's foster care story and got it. 

Oh yes... you can pitch a broad idea. Absolutely. Actually writing for the character is what is forbidden. I suppose I worded that a bit wrong. 

Edited by alphanguy74

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3 minutes ago, alphanguy74 said:

She was held back by lack of talent. 

 

CK is not some piss poor actress who doesn't know where she is on a set. She's capable of far more than playing some sex kitten.  Regardless of her talent or lack there of, she has still been held back. Let's not pretend otherwise. 

1 minute ago, alphanguy74 said:

Oh yes... you can pitch a broad idea. Absolutely. Actually writing for the character is what is forbidden. I suppose I worded that a bit wrong. 

 

VR never said KSJ wanted to write for his own character. She said he was repeatedly denied stories he pitched for his character. Tank said KSJ pitched him to the show. Where is writing for character coming from? 

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33 minutes ago, ajsp35801 said:

 

Thurgood Marshall Travers brought me back to ATWT after a 4 year hiatus. Not just me, but I asked one of my friends to start watching. We were hooked! We still quote him in conversation to this day.  "Note to self" 

 

 I knew where it was headed once he raped Jessica, his only option for a love interest really. His ending was despicable. Didn't Bonnie push him out of a window in some grand stand type confrontation? 

 

However, I don't put him in the same category as Hilary simply because of the short time he was on the show. They did this year after year with Hilary pretending to care and value her.  Him, they just went ahead and got rid of. It's not like his character wasn't working. I always wondered why? 

 

In some ways it was worse, considering the relatively brief time vs. the lasting damage the characterization and storyline did. 

 

Marshall Traver was the first black man in ATWT's history who was allowed to show unbridled sexuality.  As much as I loved Detective Roy Franklin, the show made him lose Jessica's affections to Duncan McKechnie (a character who was allowed to be ultra-masculine, highly sexual, wild, mysterious and yes, a bit dangerous)  and people kept complaining about how boring they thought safe Ben Harris was and similar to Neil/KSJ, many began to equate this somehow with the fault of the actor, rather than the writing.

 

Making Marshall a rapist sent a very clear message that not only was it dangerous to show that type of open sexuality in a black man but, if it involved a highly educated, refined and savvy black man--that type of unrestrained sexuality was downright criminal and had to be met with the ultimate form of punishment.  You never had another black character on the show with that type of agency for the rest of the show's run.  The damage was irreversible.

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7 minutes ago, ajsp35801 said:

 

CK is not some piss poor actress who doesn't know where she is on a set. She's capable of far more than playing some sex kitten.  Regardless of her talent or lack there of, she has still been held back. Let's not pretend otherwise. 

 

VR never said KSJ wanted to write for his own character. She said he was repeatedly denied stories he pitched for his character. Tank said KSJ pitched him to the show. Where is writing for character coming from? 

I wonder if he suggested Tank as a Malcolm recast.

 

Daytime has a long history of emasculating/cuckolding or vilifying black men. Little room for in between. They did the same with RJ on OLTL when Evangeline went to John. (And RJ had served the baddie role to Hank’s good guy earlier on.) So interesting how the writing for certain groups always follows the same patterns.

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26 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

I wonder if he suggested Tank as a Malcolm recast.

 

Daytime has a long history of emasculating/cuckolding or vilifying black men. Little room for in between. They did the same with RJ on OLTL when Evangeline went to John. (And RJ had served the baddie role to Hank’s good guy earlier on.) So interesting how the writing for certain groups always follows the same patterns.

I've seen them more often than not, take a criminal or low life and "Redeem" them. They certainly did it with Jazz and Nathan. 

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52 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

In some ways it was worse, considering the relatively brief time vs. the lasting damage the characterization and storyline did. 

 

Marshall Traver was the first black man in ATWT's history who was allowed to show unbridled sexuality.  As much as I loved Detective Roy Franklin, the show made him lose Jessica's affections to Duncan McKechnie (a character who was allowed to be ultra-masculine, highly sexual, wild, mysterious and yes, a bit dangerous)  and people kept complaining about how boring they thought safe Ben Harris was and similar to Neil/KSJ, many began to equate this somehow with the fault of the actor, rather than the writing.

 

Making Marshall a rapist sent a very clear message that not only was it dangerous to show that type of open sexuality in a black man but, if it involved a highly educated, refined and savvy black man--that type of unrestrained sexuality was downright criminal and had to be met with the ultimate form of punishment.  You never had another black character on the show with that type of agency for the rest of the show's run.  The damage was irreversible.

 

I adored Gentleman Ben, which was the nickname we, me and my friend, gave him. But it can't be disputed that the writing for him cast him in the same boring bland role that viewers subscribed to Neil. 

 

I agree with what you're saying with respect to Marshall because I was angry enough to drop ATWT for a while after. But, I was younger then so less in tune with BTS drama and less aware of the subtle and not so subtle  ways in which these shows marginalize Black folks. Maybe that's why I don't feel it was quite on the same level as with MiMs Hilary. 

 

 

Edited by ajsp35801

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