HBO: Game of Thrones

[Juliajms]

OMG. I didn't even think of that. Ack!

Usually, I watch episodes more than once, but I doubt I'll be able to watch that with this episode. Way too sad. I remember when I read the books, I just couldn't believe it was happening.

Tywin and Roose Bolton make interesting allies. They are both pretty ruthless, although not as bad as the bastard of Bolton. Wonder how Theon is doing. I hope we see him again before this season is over.

I also have to give credit to the way the show has used The Rains of Castamere all season long to foreshadow the Red Wedding. When that music started tonight it was perfect. Like Lord Tywin was right there presiding over the whole thing. You could see from Cat's face she knew it.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Juliajms

[quartermainefan]

It's not the same, at least not for me. Part of the thing about the series was watching these various Starks all struggling to get back to each other, Arya especially, the boys trying to find Jon, Robb trying to find the girls. And now I see it is just a bleak neverending, no pay off endeavor. Arya will never find anybody as far as I can see. The boys will probably never find Jon, Sansa will never be rescued either. It is just a futile exercise for the family of good.

I love the Lannisters, but every story needs the heroes too, and sometimes there has to be some sense of triumph like the goodguys won one. I just don't see that happening any time soon for any of them. We watched Arya struggle for two years to get to Robb, and all she got was watching her dog die. At least they could have let her rescue the wolf. That simple thing alone would have been satisfying.

[Juliajms]

I do see what you're saying. Whatever pay off there will be is a long way off. I do think there will be some, but it won't be until the very end of the series. It's a very long journey. I remember feeling exactly the way you do about it not being the same. I took the red wedding very hard. It's much worse in the books because I had read thousands of pages and the characters are more deeply drawn. It's a real heart breaker. Still, somehow, the series does keep working, if you give it a chance.

One thing to consider is that not all of the Lannisters are bad. Tyrion is a good guy, imo. Jamie is a gray character, but I think he has one of the best redemption arcs ever.

My speculation (not the least bit a spoiler) is that someday the remaining Stark children will meet again. At this point, I think it's pretty clear that Jon is the male hero of the series. He started of the lowest of the low, people were expecting Robb to be the hero, but it's really going to be Jon.

[Ann_SS]

I rewatched the episode last night. The Red Wedding was no less devastating the second time around. Heartbreaking, Cat's realization of Frey and Bolton's treachery and Robb's expression stood there in shock when Talisa and the baby were killed. Robb calling for his mother before the end. Cat's anguished cry as her son was killed right in front of her.

One thing is that I wish that the tv show would have done more to help audience realize that Jon the male hero. There are tons of hints in the book, some of which could have been translated to the screen.

I realized in my second viewing what different men Jon and Robb are. Not that Robb was a bad man, but he was swayed by emotion much like Ned was. Robb broke his oath over his feelings for Talisa. In contrast, Jon never let his feelings for Ygritte deter him from his loyalty to the Night Watch or his duty to the Westeros. He kept trying to convince her to come over to his side and when that failed he abandoned her. I hope his pretty face is not scarred for life.

Btw, Grey Wind was Robb's wolf. Arya sent her wolf away ages ago to save it from Joffery.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Ann_SS

[Ann_SS]

So much happened that I overview looked the Jorah/Grey Worm/Daario fight scene which rocked. It was interesting to see how distinct, but effective their fighting styles were. They really are great warriors.

[Juliajms]

This is a good interview by GRRM about why he did the Red Wedding.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/02/game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-why-he-wrote-the-red-wedding/

Arya's wolf was abandoned somewhere near the Red Fork. I was hoping there would be some sort of hint that she is in the territory. While part of me hoped that Arya would get to Grey Wind, I knew it wouldn't save him anyway. He would have gone running straight to Robb and been killed.

If I have any real quibble with the TV version of the show, it's similar to yours Ann. I'm not sure that people who have only watched the show are getting enough clues as to who Jon may be. It's still all speculation, but people should be speculating and that's not happening because they've left out a lot of the hints that are in the book. The only ones I see so far is that we know how honorable Ned was. The conversation between Ned and Robert in season 1, episode 2 was a little bit of a hint. Also knowing that Ned would lie for the love of his family when we saw him confess to treason to save Sansa.

[quartermainefan]

Back on page 8 of this thread, July 2011 I posted my Jon theory

[Juliajms]

Right, but Ned would have no reason to hide that from Robert. Robert would have been thrilled to have a baby by Lyanna, imo. I doubt they ever had sex. Dany's brother Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, which is what started Robert's rebellion. Robert HATED the Targaryans because of this. He said he wanted to kill every one of them, which is why Ned had a possible motive to lie, even to Cat.

Robert said in season 1 that Rhaegar Targaryan raped Lyanna. We don't know that's true. It could be he raped her and Jon is hers. It could be that he married her as a second wife and Jon is hers. It could be that Jon really is Ned's son. Ned told Jon that he is Ned's blood (father, uncle, who knows?), so that almost has to be true, considering he told him as he was leaving for the wall. It really isn't known yet, but I do think that the show hasn't made it clear that there is a lot of reason to suspect that Jon is the hero of the show. Maybe last night, they did make it clear.

If Ned was lying to Cat all that time, I just think it's so tragic. All that pain and resentment for nothing. From my perspective, it's Jon that has Ned's sense of honor more than Robb. Robb broke a marriage pact. I can't imagine Ned ever doing that. Jon didn't break his vow, even though he loved Ygritte (good point, Ann).

At the same time, Gendry is Robert's son and he's with Stannis now. I think he has a greater role to play then we might suspect so far.

My disclaimer is that everything I'm saying is speculation. Soon the story gets much bigger so there isn't a ton of progress made in some of these stories in the books. I have to believe the show will really start to diverge from the books because of that. I don't we will get answers to the big questions until the last season of the show and the last book of the series.

[quartermainefan]

I just can't get away from the scene in season 1 where Ned said all the Baratheon illgitimate children had black hair (where Joffrey did not). Targaryans seem as blond as blond can be, and Starks don't tend to have jet black hair either. So where did Jon get his black hair from? That's just thing that sticks with me.

[Ann_SS]

You cannot go by the actors cast for these roles. The show has done its best, but... I don't think that I am spoiling much, but I will say that in the books, Arya and Jon are the two children who look the most like the Starks. The other children have more Tully features. This likely contributed to Cat's resentment of Jon for all those years. The Targaryans are blonde typically, but that is due to years of inbreeding. If one of them had a child with someone with dark features, those features would be dominant.

I completely agree. If only Cat could have found the courage to rise beyond her pride and love Jon. After all, he had no control over his conception and his mother was dead. When the truth is revealed and Jon takes his rightful place... I most gave a real spoiler away there. Let's just say a lot of people are going to have to be obeisant.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Ann_SS

[Bright Eyes]

As someone who hasn't read a shred of the books or any spoilers whatsoever, it always been clear to me that Jon Snow is the male lead hero and Dany the main heroine / most important characters. Everyone other person, maybe sans Arya, comes off as a supporting player, especially the second Ned was killed. That my perspective as only a watched of the TV version, anyway.

And in regards to Jon Snow's paternity, it seems very premature to have killed off Cat. From basic story logic, her reaction to the reveal should have been very important and long awaited. Too bad.

And what of Tyrion's whore/girlfriend? Wasn't her true identity hinted at when she first came on as well?

Edited June 3, 2013 by Bright Eyes

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

Interesting to read all your reactions to the last episode and the thoughts on Jon vs Robb. I am especially intrigued by the comparisons between Jon and Ned.

Of course book readers will know that there's all sorts of theories as to who Jon's true parents are but it is interesting that while he is a bastard he is more like Ned than Robb ever was. I never really noticed that until I read that analysis in this thread. Jon is very cold emotionally and most of the time does what his DUTY requires of him....even if he doesn't exactly like or agree with. Robb is completely the opposite and is ruled by his emotions. Its because of them that he made such horrible decisions (both in the book and in the tv series).

The book version of The Red Wedding was a lot better but the show did a decent job. But it was more of the "OMG SHOCK" angle rather than the impending sense of dread that occurs in the books for several chapters before it even occurs. Either way it is just tragic and even now I find it hard to read that chapter all the way thru. Its just soo soo painful.

And yes the Starks are all scattered now....as they are in the books. Part of my reason for reading the books is my hope that they will eventually reunite at one point (even if 1 or 2 are dead). But more and more I'm coming to the realization that that just might not happen.

The scenes between Arya and The Hound was just pure perfection....I absolutely love how the actor who plays The Hound just doesn't hold back when he delivers his lines. The whole "fear" thing was just on point as was Arya's threat/promise to him afterwards.

The one bad thing I will say about this episodes is that it should have focused entirely on the Starks. The whole Dany scenes were unnecessary and just a distraction but I guess that fed into the who shock part of the ending....

[Cheap21]

Just saw the episode and a BIG WTF to the ending. Utterly and completely shocked

[YRBB]

OMG y'all, I am numb right now. I am completely numb.

That look of shock on Cat's face.

The repeated stabbings of Talisa's belly.

Arya being soooo close and yet....

Robb getting up to face his mother.

How Cat's voice turned so deep and raspy while she was pleading.

Her scream.

I have absolutely no problem with her killing the child. Did y'all just SEE what Frey did? It was one well-deserved move.

Michelle Fairley deserves (at the very least) an Emmy nod for this.

Edited June 4, 2013 by YRBB

[Ann_SS]

Frey's wife did not deserve that death. She is like almost every woman in that world. She had no power over who she married or what her husband did. You honestly think that she wanted to marry that crusty old man. Frey will replace her without thinking twice.