OLTL: Discussion for the week January 11

[Vee]

You act like this is the only time any characters, of any color, fell for each other after one or both were rejected by someone else. It happens all the time in soaps. Why is it forbidden here?

That's not a foregone conclusion, first of all. Second, what's your solution? No interracial romances? Even if the audience might rather see her with Sky than Greg?

You act like I'm defending their output; I'm not. But the fact is TT made himself a target. Is his vulnerability highlighted because of a race in a racist industry? Yes. Is that fair? No. But it is also reality.

She doesn't need a white actor; she needs a good actor and a popular one. Neither of which is how TT is currently viewed by the audience right now. Scott Clifton is a different story. I'd settle for a Greg recast but we both know that probably won't happen.

Sure it would. Chairgate would not have happened and we would not be in this position. Maybe they'd be backburnered, but it would not be on the verge of a scuttling as it is now after Greg became YouTube fodder.

Oh, are we counting Evangeline's interracial romances as a minority pairing? Because her only romance with a black man was RJ. That didn't fail because of RJ. That failed because they wanted to throw her at John.

She hasn't. Tilford has.

I am not justifying it. I'm simply acknowledging the facts. Expecting the audience to wake up and give TT's Greg another go is a fantasy. The only solution is a) recast or move Rachel on. I say that and I like Tilford.

DD is not Christel Khalil, but I'd love for her to get Lily's level of airtime.

You're right, it's not okay that minority pairings fail. But even when you have two great actors and fan support it's an uphill road given the industry's POV (hello, Brot and Natalia). So what would you give the audience to invest in with Greg and Rachel, after Chairgate? What's the contract with the audience after that? What do you say to them? And if they don't take to it, what prevents Rachel and Greg from turning into Hank and Sheila thanks to ABC seizing on the failure?

[DRW50]

Only if we get Vivienne back. Please please please.

[SFK]

I agree, she is certainly the best Rachel recast so far. Morrow and Grant were both messes and they didn't "feel" like Rachel as DD does, imo. I buy her as Nora and Hank's daughter. Anais Granofsky (Lucy, Degrassi) would be a PERFECT Ellen Bethea Rachel recast. Years ago when ABC's boards were on AOL, we were discussing the color politics of Rachel, how she was cast more and more African-American as she reached her nadir... Lord, we took this show SO seriously.

[SFK]

Oh yes, she would be VERY good in that role, and like Marcy Rylan as Lizzie, I would actually LIKE the character... what a difference a recast makes.

[Mr. Vixen]

I agree to some extent. I do like the character of Rachel, but the actress does seem like she could do more of a vixen type role. I think if they shook Rachel's character up, she would be much better. I do think she's a great actress, though.

[DeeeDee]

When Y&R offensively failed at gay stories they were rightfully taken to task for it by gay critics & fans.

When a similar situation that's offensive to minority viewers why is it wrong for them to take OLTL to task?

If they come at the expense of quality minority ones then yes.

These days it's much more rare to have a minority couple at all than it is for a minority to be a token half of an interracial couple.

It's not a reality.

It's a blatant racist double standard & those defending it as a reality are part of the problem not part of the solution.

Both of whom just conveniently are associated with being White.

Tell that to Michael B. Jordan & Lamman Rucker & Paul Taylor.

Maybe?

Rachel & Greg could be played by Sophie Okonedo & Terrence Howard & they would still end up on the backburner with the excuse that somehow they would be more comfortable there then treated with as much investment as their White peers.

She has.

It takes TWO actors to make a pairing work.

There's a difference?

Why?

Minority audiences are expected to wake up & give one horrible White actor after another another go until they establish a workable niche why shouldn't White audiences not be expected the same?

Daphnee's a better actress than Khalil but she won't get Khalil's airtime until she becomes a slave to the white penis above all else which will happen soon enough.

So in 2010 we've regressed to the point where a couple of bad scenes is enough to sink a minority pairing, reason to emasculate & eliminate minority male characters & turn any viable minority female characters into concubines for White Men?

Lovely.

[Vee]

Oh, let's not try and draw that comparison again. It's not wrong to take them to task. I do think OLTL and all soaps should be taken to task for not investing much, much more effort into minority couples. It's part of why I'd like to see Greg and Rachel get a second chance with an actor the audience is more receptive to. But I also understand what is actually going to happen here. The audience has tuned Greg out, and if you leave Tilford around or Rachel with Tilford's Greg, they will end up tuning her out. It is the same old song, and it's one that daytime relies upon in order to get audiences complacent, to make them not complain when they cut not one, but both actors of color.

As for Sky and Rachel vs. Greg and Rachel-

But most of the audience does not consider Greg and Rachel a quality minority couple. Even before Chairgate they were only a handful of us interested. Now there's less. So what do you do?

You're absolutely right about that. But that doesn't mean one specific minority couple therefore has a right to exist if the audience will not support it and does not want to watch it. And I fear they don't with Greg and Rachel.

No - I'm acknowledging the problem and offering solutions, recast, find another man of color, etc., you're not. You're saying let them go on as they are; the problem is, after Chairgate there's almost no one supporting them as they are.

Not to me. It wouldn't matter to me if Schuyler was white, black or polka-dot; the point is he has buzz, the audience likes him, and they no longer have much interest in Greg. So what do you do?

Lamman Rucker unfortunately played a rapist and a drug kingpin on two different shows; his fate was never in doubt. Taylor and Jordan were exploited by AMC and ATWT, yes, but none of those men ever had Chairgate make the audience turn on them. They were enjoyed by the audience. But TT is just an object of derision to much of the audience now, sad but true.

And what has DD done wrong here? AFAIK she sold this story with Tilford. She didn't throw those chairs. I haven't seen any checkin' out.

Yes, there is a difference between acknowledging an imbalance and excusing it. Only by acknowledging the imbalance and finding ways to circumvent it can you begin to right it; simply saying an obstacle is wrong and should not be there is not progress and does not help anyone. None of us can singlehandedly stop the daytime industry from employing racist double standards, but we can brainstorm ways for characters of color to succeed and defy that. Y&R did it, AMC did it, in less progressive times. They did it with talented actors who the audience took seriously. Almost no one out there takes Tilford as Greg Evans seriously.

I think the laughter at Chairgate is colorblind. And that doesn't resolve the issue of what to do about it. You're saying do nothing and I'm saying that's a death sentence for both characters.

Concubines? Really? And you didn't answer the question. How are you going to get the audience to take Tilford's Greg seriously again after that mess? I'd love to know because I can't think of anything, and I've tried, because I like the guy.

[DeeeDee]

Why not?

Yet when they doing just that NOW it's suddenly a problem?

Something which isn't & wasn't ever going to happen.

You treat them like other couples.

So what they didn't work immediately & Terrell isn't the second coming of James Earl Jones.

That's the point of investing in actors & characters.

Minority couples & characters aren't going to be supported.

That's the point.

The ONLY way racial/ethnic minorities will have anything close to equal or fair representation is to leave Daytime altogether because it's not for us.

No.

What I'm saying is that TPTB COULD recast but they won't & that it doesn't matter WHO played Greg because Greg as a character was never meant to succeed.

So once again it's more important to keep the minority actress around regardless of token status or how offensive the message.

And STILL thrown under the bus for White Men and/or written out.

Apparently not enough.

We sure can singlehandedly stop Daytime from employing racist standards but we can start listening to those viewers directly affected by them instead of marginalizing & ignoring them like their onscreen counterparts.

The audience took Debbi, Darnell, Victoria, Tamara, Amelia, Monti, Kristoff, Mike Jordan, Paul Taylor, Peter Parros, Nate Purdee, Tim Stickney, Lamman, Shemar, etc seriously but that hasn't stopped them from throwing them under the bus too.

Nate Purdee has been in The Buke attic for HOW LONG now?

It was laughable when Tim Stickney came back solely to cause trouble for Todd/Tea & TPTB said they wanted to write for him.

Had Tim had stuck around he would be right in the Buke attic with Hank.

[DeeeDee]

Which is why JPL, Easton & TSJ are all about to be emasculated & written out.

Yes. Really.

She CAN'T make it work with a minority love interest but she conveniently CAN with a White one.

I'd play him & Rachel, with Frankie & Tonye for awhile.

Let Greg deal with being around his family again & how Phylicia's dislike of Rachel & his increased workload at the hospital affects their relationship.

Also have Greg mentor Kyle & make friends with Marty through Rachel & being colleagues together at work or have him become jealous of Shaun's relationship with Des cause he can't deal with her being over her hero complex of him.

[All My Shadows]

Greg is boring as hell, but Rachel and Sky shouldn't be anything more than friends. Now that Layla is with Cris, bring back Vincent for Rachel.

[marceline]

God what an amazing list of actors.

DeeeDee, you willingly acknowledge that ABCD will never do right by black actors and it clearly makes you angry, so what did they show you to make you invest in these characters? I don't mean that in a judgmental way.I was simply wonderingL did OLTL show you something that made you think that just for one second they wouldn't treat the black woman like toilet paper? Did they give you a reason to think that maybe Destiny would be anything more than Mammy to Dani and Matthew's Scarlett and Rhett? Or Layla would be something more than Grace to Fish's Will? Because as I see it Frons hates women and minorities and Ron is, at best, indifferent to them. The show reflects that. I'd like to think that in it's last year OLTL could/would take a stand for the minority women who have been keeping it on the air all these years but we both know that won't happen.

[Khan]

Or, make Rachel Amelia's new love interest. ;-)

[Khan]

Or, let Brody quit the police force, decide to open his own gym, and that way, we'd get him and Ford half-naked, dispensing advice.

[Doyen]

Yes it was.  Once again, the trivial C-listers take over.  But I guess better on a Thursday than a Friday...

[Soapsuds]

Brody and Ford working at a strip club....stripping for money....lol. Ford was yummy today. LOL at the scenes with him, Kyle and Fish. The whole David stuff was so boring....Why does he continue to appear??