15 minutes ago, Khan said:

I think I've said this before, but as impactful as that storyline was on GL, it also feels too convoluted, for lack of a better word, and probably explains why Douglas Marland simply never addressed it during his time with the show. (Remember, he felt the same way about Peter and Diana Taylor conveniently being adoptive parents to Jeff and Heather Webber's baby on GH).

Strap in, folks, we're taking a deep-dive into this storyline:

It wasn't convoluted, not really. Jackie always knew that Phillip was her son, she knew that her child replaced Elizabeth's child because it was going to be stillborn. She was shown discussing this with Elizabeth's doctor, who was also her doctor while she was pregnant. Then after the birth, she befriended Elizabeth and Alan so she could keep tabs on Phillip.

When the Spauldings first came on the show, Alan was supposed to be from Chicago. They lived with Jackie while looking for a house. Then someone must have said, "Hey, it's too much of a coincidence that they landed in Springfield, where Jackie lived." So they changed it so that Alan's family was from Springfield and had a mansion in town.

If there's one thing that made no sense in this story is WHY Alan did this. He didn't even LIKE Elizabeth. She was never going give him children of his own. Why didn't he just divorce her and marry a woman who could give him children? Or if he could accept an adopted child, why not mourn the child he lost with Elizabeth and then somewhere down the road adopt one?

(It's possible this was explained in more detail at the time, but this is what I remember and what I've read in recaps).

He claimed he didn't want Elizabeth to have a breakdown, yadda, yadda--but he didn't care about her. Like at all. If she lost her mind he could have parked her in an institution and divorced her. The only reasons he flipped out when she left him was because she did the leaving and she was taking Phillip away.

(It's hard to ignore the fact that he was abusive. Not is a physical way, but in an emotional way. He made her life hell. That's why I'm convinced if the Dobsons had remained, he was originally slated to do the same to Hope eventually, which didn't happen until Ryder and Long took over the show).

So the thing that was missing here, again, is what was his motivation, other than to create a long-term baby switch storyline?

I think it had to do with Brandon. If the Dobsons had stayed, it might have been revealed that for one reason or another (my guess is a trust) he HAD to present Brandon with a male grandchild. He specifically asked the doctor for a male child. Remember, Alan Michael had a trust that he tried to get hold of, and even though that happened under different writers, it not hard to imagine that Alan wanted control of a trust for his first child, too. He would have almost certainly been the trustee and would have controlled it until Phillip grew up. (I also think a possible reason he married Elizabeth is because Brandon commanded it--which would be another reason for him to hate him).

He stays with Elizabeth because he falls head over heels for Phillip--come on, Phillip was the one true love of his life; that was the ONE thing that was consistent about Alan though many, many regime changes, right down to the last episode of GL. So much so that he was willing to give up having biological children. He even told Elizabeth after Brandon died and Jackie divorced him that it was unlikely he would ever have more children. It was really Hope who wanted to have a baby, and as we see over the years, AM was never as important to Alan as Phillip was.

There were various reasons why Marland didn't want to deal with the story: first of all, he was way more interested in his own characters and stories. That was pretty much true of every story he inherited. He had something against Lezlie Dalton and wanted to get rid of her. And, as mentioned, he just didn't like adopted children stories.

Also, he had to tackle ANOTHER paternity reveal dealing with Alan: Amanda being his daughter. What he did there, to make it more interesting to him, I would guess, is that when he created Jennifer, he gave her a teen daughter who he made one of the major players in his central young love storyline.

I can see him saying to himself, "Eh, I'll dump Phillip and Freddie in boarding school and deal with this down the road."

Even though delaying so much deprived the audience of a lot of the story beats playing out, especially because he shipped off Elizabeth and inexplicably killed off Jackie, I'm glad he did that. NO WAY would he have handled the reveal was well as Long (and Ryder, too, I think) did.

I'm just going to say it: he SUCKED at plot reveals and plot climaxes. He didn't know (or didn't care enough) how to have the reveals impact the story AFTER the reveal.

Holly is finally free of the threat of Roger and can remake her life, maybe confront her feelings about Ed? Shipped off for years. Alan is reunited with his first love who haunted him for decades? Nothing. They just become polite acquaintances. Amanda loses her child and flips out over the truth about her paternity? Has a brief mental breakdown (but only because Kathleen Cullen was going on maternity leave) then recovers and it's barely a blip. Hope finds out her father was right all along and Alan had been lying to her from the minute they fell in love? Nada. No biggie. She immediately forgives him.

On the other hand, it was Long and Ryder who set up the complex adult relationship between Alan and Phillip that played out for the rest of the life of the show.

So even though I'm p!ssed at Marland for mishandling the story, by kicking it down the road, he allowed other writers to use it to impact the canvas for the life of the show.

Maybe then it's the entire situation around Phillip that's convoluted.

The fact that Jackie lied to Justin, and claimed to have an abortion. That a rich (or at least well-off) daughter of a prominent surgeon gave up her child rather than raise him. That she not only befriended the couple that adopted her son, but after they divorce, marries Alan and gets pregnant by him herself. That Justin and Elizabeth also marry. That both of those marriages crash and burn within months. Yadda yadda (a thousand little details I'm probably overlooking.)

I'll defend Marland to this extent---it took him three years to orchestrate the Adam reveal on ATWT. And the Aaron reveal was probably at least two. Marland's barely there two years.

I don't think Alan was ever in love with Jennifer (or Jane Marie). He was dating her older sister, and ending up having sex with the younger one. (and how exactly, I don't know.) It was the older sister's drowning that (somewhat) haunted him.

4 minutes ago, P.J. said:

The fact that Jackie lied to Justin, and claimed to have an abortion. That a rich (or at least well-off) daughter of a prominent surgeon gave up her child rather than raise him. That she not only befriended the couple that adopted her son, but after they divorce, marries Alan and gets pregnant by him herself.

That's because Jackie was a very complex character when the Dobsons wrote her: selfish and immature when she married Justin (which is why he regretted breaking up with Sarah MacIntyre). But Justin was also an @sshat. She walked in on him with another woman.

Yeah, she was a horribly selfish person, giving Phillip away just to spite Justin, stalking Elizabeth so she could be close to Phillip, snapping up Alan the minute they go divorced so she could raise Phillip because she assumed Alan would have custody, keeping the secret that she was Phillip's mother even when he was practically dying from a genetic heart condition, contemplating leaving Alan when he lost custody and only staying because she got pregnant, which she did not plan.

I'm going to say it again: Marland didn't play the beats. When Elizabeth found out, did she tear Jackie's hair out over all this, as she had a total right to do? NO. She decided Justin and Jackie should get custody of Phillip! And even MORE ridiculous: ALAN, who was indirectly connected to a murder during the first custody fight for Phillip, eventually agrees to it! And Elizabeth, who was portrayed as loving her child as much or more than Alan even did, leaves him and is barely heard from again.

He instead turned Jackie and Justin into a couple of holier-than-thou types, totally taking away the complexity and nuances of the characters. For some reason, he potrayed them getting custody of Phillip as the right thing to do, when in fact, it had to be a major reason why Phillip was so completely f@cked up, because the two people he thought were his parents gave him away for no discernable reason.

It didn't really become convoluted until Marland took over the story, having all the characters behave in ways that were really inexplicabe.

13 hours ago, GL95 said:

What’s funny is I had no idea until I came on this board that Amanda wasn’t supposed to be in her 30s when she was reintroduced given the backstory with Ross. I just assumed she was supposed to be older than Blake. Similar to Sherry Stringfield’s Blake Toby Poser’s Amanda played older to me

Yes.... I think Toby played older and was supposed to be in her 30s...(I always someone like Alex to comment on Amanda Alex: "Well, California must have been good to you, you havent aged a day," Amanda, "Its the California sun" Alex: "Well, this Dr. Sun does excellent work dear!" They have Amanda refer to Phillip as her "little brother" just so we know. Its kind of like Deas not being that much older then Frankie D, or on ATWT Lyla actress being a few years older then Colin, its just one of those things soap viewers accept.

I wish more of the Dobson era was up. Because no matter how many times I read it, I'm amazed that viewers didn't find Jackie a complete psychopath user bitch.

It's a Gordian Knot of a story. It would've been interesting to see how the Dobson's played it out.

9 minutes ago, P.J. said:

I wish more of the Dobson era was up. Because no matter how many times I read it, I'm amazed that viewers didn't find Jackie a complete psychopath user bitch.

It was Cindy. Somehow she made Jackie empathetic.

My late mom was watching the show during the early 1970s through the early 1990s so she remembered the Phillip story quite well and even said that even if he'd been raised by Justin and/or Jackie.. he still would have had darker traits based on how bad both Justin/Jackie were in their early years. Being raised by Alan just bought those negative traits out into the open.

Based on what my mom had told me about early Jackie... she was a highly spirited and manipulative daughter of a well known and wealthy doctor that spoiled her. She was known to take whatever she wanted no matter if it belonged to her or not and she did so with Justin when she stole him away from Sara.

When she saw Justin doing to her what she'd done to Sara, she decided to make him pay by keeping his child away from him and decided to basically sell her child to Alan, who wanted to not burden his wife Elizabeth with the news their own baby had been still born. I think Alan did it mostly to keep Elizabeth distracted while he played around.... that type of behavior seemed to repeat itself during his marriage to Hope and how A-M kept her occupied and out of his hair.

Jackie realized she'd made a mistake and befriended Elizabeth and kept in Phillip's life throughout his childhood. It was she knew she'd be staying in Springfield long term is when she insisted Alan/Elizabeth come to Springfield so she could remain in their lives on a more consistent basis.

I think Jackie's character changed/evolved partly based on Cindy's take on the character and also because she'd realized her mistakes plus also being married to Alan changed her.

46 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

My late mom was watching the show during the early 1970s through the early 1990s so she remembered the Phillip story quite well and even said that even if he'd been raised by Justin and/or Jackie.. he still would have had darker traits based on how bad both Justin/Jackie were in their early years. Being raised by Alan just bought those negative traits out into the open.

Yeah, Phillip was doomed from the start. 😂 The selfishness of everyone involved--and I have to include Elizabeth, because only someone REALLY messed up would believe giving your 12 year old basically up for adoption would be a GOOD thing--was off the charts. One of the rare cases where Alan wasn't at the top of the list.

One other beat Marland missed--Alan finding out the reason Jackie really married him. A guy with his ego would have FLIPPED OUT. Even though he was using her and much as she was using him (being married improved his chances of gaining custody) he probably believed she was crazy about him, at least in the beginning.

I'm sorry, this was such a good story, regardless of believability, because of the complexity of the characters involved and the situation. Some of my favorite scenes are when Alan and Jackie were married. They were SO mismatched, both of them having no idea how to live together as a couple, both using each other, most of that staying in the subtext. Chris and Cindy played the heck out of those scenes. This is why it is so disappointing that we never got the reveals involving the characters who were chucked out prematurely. Carrie Mowery was no match for Cindy Pickett, but I still would have liked seeing Jackie having to face the chickens coming home to roost.

49 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

Yeah, Phillip was doomed from the start. 😂 The selfishness of everyone involved--and I have to include Elizabeth, because only someone REALLY messed up would believe giving your 12 year old basically up for adoption would be a GOOD thing--was off the charts. One of the rare cases where Alan wasn't at the top of the list.

One other beat Marland missed--Alan finding out the reason Jackie really married him. A guy with his ego would have FLIPPED OUT. Even though he was using her and much as she was using him (being married improved his chances of gaining custody) he probably believed she was crazy about him, at least in the beginning.

I'm sorry, this was such a good story, regardless of believability, because of the complexity of the characters involved and the situation. Some of my favorite scenes are when Alan and Jackie were married. They were SO mismatched, both of them having no idea how to live together as a couple, both using each other, most of that staying in the subtext. Chris and Cindy played the heck out of those scenes. This is why it is so disappointing that we never got the reveals involving the characters who were chucked out prematurely. Carrie Mowery was no match for Cindy Pickett, but I still would have liked seeing Jackie having to face the chickens coming home to roost.

Just think, had the show not been expanded to an hour.. we most likely wouldn't have gotten the Spauldings nor the Phillip story.

I liked that we met both Justin and Jackie long before the Phillip element came into play. Justin was on a good five to six months before Jackie came into the picture.. and Jackie was on for several months before mention of the Spauldings and her 'aborted/lost' child came to the forefront.

Had the show stayed a half hour, the Dobsons probably would have just focused on either a Justin/Mike/Jackie triangle or a Justin/Mike/Sara/Jackie quadangle. Sara lost her place in that story with the Spaulding additions while she was spun off onto another bad man pairing before being made a talk to character.

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The channel that tends to provide a few brand new vintage episodes a year for various soaps has found another for GL. In good quality too. April 1, 1953. I checked and couldn't find the episode elsewhere, although there is already some March and April around. There's always a double-edged sword in so much of one period being around when so much else is gone but I'm still very grateful and I'm sure you will be too.

Most of this is just the Roberts and the Grants, the former worrying about Kathy and the latter having Laura Grant at her most imperious in her schemes to break up Dick and Kathy. One surprise is we actually get to see Joey Roberts. I assume this is Tarry Green. I don't think we've ever seen him before, although I may be wrong.

I was going to say he looks a bit old for 18 but this is 1953...not sure how old Green was but I see he had been in Broadway shows starting in 1951.

Edited 29 minutes ago29 min by DRW50

1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

Sara lost her place in that story with the Spaulding additions while she was spun off onto another bad man pairing before being made a talk to character.

It seems as though they briefly considered pairing Sara with Alan. They definitely had a chem test scene in that one 1978 episode that's available.

Thanks so much for the tag, @DRW50 !