Y&R March 2021 Discussion Thread

[DramatistDreamer]

As someone who has written pieces and casted them myself vs. writing pieces and *having* them cast by a director, a bad casting choice can truly wreak havoc on even great quality writing. I have experienced this personally.

 

Also, television is a different process than theater and even film. In film, a power-hungry director can really pull the entire project down the wrong alley but at least, a director is connected to the creative process. Executives in T.V. have too much say, imo and it has a tendency to ruin things. Casting an actor to achieve a certain "lewk" is idiotic and deserves to flop. Trying to achieve the aesthetic of a competing network sounds almost as idiotic. Y&R had been #1 for over a decade by the time AH was cast as Victoria and where was AMC in the ratings? I know, I know demographics but, Y&R didn't just have the Glow By Jabot "kids" who were ageing out...they also had the group behind them who consisted of at least two legacy kids in Colleen Carlton and Lily Winters, that would have given them at least two more years until they could have then planned to build for Cassie, Noah

  etc.

 

I think $$$ was more of a factor than many are willing to concede. Cold hard cash ruled a lot of the decision-making but poor money choices, since none of these choices were ones that would lead to bigger ad buys.

[FrenchBug82]

Someone mentioned it earlier and I think they have it right. The fact they chose AH - an experienced actress in soaps but quite low on the totem pole of name recognition or skills at the time - was partially motivated by money - and I bet that even after sixteen years, she probably still costs a lot less than three-time Emmy winner Heather Tom does.
I think there are many reasons for which the shift wouldn't happen: HT is probably happy with her work load at B&B, AH is probably "part of the family" over at Y&R, the money trade-off probably wouldn't be worth it for them, etc.
They probably would have swapped AH back with HT if she had rejoined after she left OLTL and moved back to LA. Now? It is AH's role until she decides to leave. They won't Tognoni her.

 

 

[DramatistDreamer]

 

It's money and it's also ego that have driven some of the worst decision, imo.

 

[Meredith]

Douglas Marland wrote for GH, GL and ATWT.
He made up a list of rules for how not to ruin a soap.
Josh Griffith needs to review those rules:
-Never change a core character. (eg. Phyllis, Billy, Sharon)
-Consult with the actors. (eg. Michelle Stafford, Jason Thompson, Sharon Case)
-Don't introduce new characters too quickly. (eg. Ashland Locke, Sally Spectra)
-Always read fan mail. (eg. the surrogate storyline)
-Be objective. (avoid personal or political biases)

[FrenchBug82]

I have to be honest: I think JG's writing has sucked for a while but I actually don't think these rules are really the problem

And some of them are actually bad and probably would make things worse.
 

Let's see:

-Never change a core character. (eg. Phyllis, Billy, Sharon)
That is obviously a golden rule but has JG really done that? I mean, nothing is happening so nothing of late that is jumping at me whose problem is being out-of-character. Boring, stupid, etc... Yes.
But I don't see how JG changed any of the examples you give. Sharon's character has been trashed beyond recognition but that long predates JG. Having her marry Victor is when the car careened out of the road for me and they have never really brought it back to a version of the character I recognize. Billy's current version is awful but, again, that long predates JG. All the post-BM writing has been awful (and some of it during BM but at least the charm of that version of the character masked some of it). And Phyllis is exactly who she always was. She actually regressed to what she was ten years ago compared to the GT version that had her mature a bit IMO.
So I am not sure this is really the problem at the moment. It absolutely has been in the past but that doesn't seem to be JG's problem at the moment. He is not doing anything with the characters so he can't really be changing them.

-Consult with the actors. (eg. Michelle Stafford, Jason Thompson, Sharon Case)
That is an awful, awful, AWFUL advice on Marland's part. Stafford and Morrow being consulted is exactly how we ended up with every tired Phick renaissance. Eric Braeden being consulted is why Victor has become an all-knowing all-powerful always-winning mustache-twirling villain rather than a complex character with vulnerabilities. Actor feedback can be useful when a writer comes in because the actor might have some input as to what needs to be changed. But actors are not writers and people understanding what their place is and staying there is generally a good idea of any endeavor.
-Don't introduce new characters too quickly. (eg. Ashland Locke, Sally Spectra)

That is a good rule but I am not sure this entirely qualifies as a big problem right now.
I guess I will grant you that, yes, we are seeing a LOT of Sally right off the bat (although the assumption that there is some audience familiarity because of B&B) but the biggest problem is that nothing is happening in that story. So we are not overdosing on them giving her too much to do. We are just seeing a lot of her. But that's fair enough a criticism in this case.
Otoh I am not exactly sure how Ashland - who I have no interest in - is being introduced "too quickly". They have been talking about him for weeks long before he showed up. I mean I don't feel the problem is there was any rush; it is that again, whatever is going on is not interesting. If he is on every day in the next few weeks, we can revisit this but I would hardly consider this a good example of introducing a character too quickly. Just being introduced not very well.

-Always read fan mail. (eg. the surrogate storyline)

Again I am ambivalent about this. JG should definitely hear the general discontent about the lack of interest in the show. But as for your example, the surrogate storyline JUST started - so who knows maybe he has already started to write it out and it is being filmed - and it is clear it was sabotaged by the Chance firing. I am not sure what the fan feedback would have been telling them they don't already know and considering the delay between story airing and continuation of story being filmed even the most reactive headwriter would need a few months before they could course-correct.
And I am not sure it is a good advice anyway. Audience reaction should be watched in various ways (and again I definitely agree fan dissastisfaction with the current course should be better heard "upstairs") but fan mail only rewards the most vocal fans and I would hardly consider "fan mail" to be wise and representative of the audience. See the abundant Cane fan mail they were getting which convinced them to rehire him and use him long after noone else but DG stans cared. See generally how supercouple fandom has sabotaged the writing for many characters by preventing writers from taking risks and breaking up couples that were tiresome together. And frightening them from taking risks by tackling topics that could risk a vocal reaction from some parts of the audience. Which brings us to....
-Be objective. (avoid personal or political biases)

That is utter nonsense as far as I am concerned and offensive at that.
Objectivity does not exist. We ALL have personal biases and a view of the world. The difference is simply between those who understand their truth is a subjective truth based on their personal story, circumstances, race, gender, sexuality, place of living, financial situation, etc. and those who think their values are the only correct objective ones and everyone else is biased.
And making a choice NOT to address certain issues under the guise of "being objective" is as much political or personal bias as addressing them. "Avoiding political biases" is for instance how white folks have enabled the continuation of centuries of racial oppression by simply refusing to discuss issues of race.
So a pretense of "objectivity" is simply a way for people satisfied with the status quo to protect said status quo by pretending those who contest it are biased trouble-makers.
Pretending not to have biases is the privilege of those who are already in privilege.
I am not having this Marland rule AT ALL. 
In any case, I am not sure what of JG's writing would be of bias, political or otherwise. I'd argue it is bland and unremarkable to the point where it looks like he is actually following that horrible advice.

[KMan101]

 

Gina would have been fire in the role. I could see Carrie Genzel. She's never gotten enough credit in the soap world IMO, even though all of us on here have given her credit.

 

LMAO at Jamie Luner up for everything. I remember that.

 

It's almost like soaps don't want women who can add layers and be more than bland romantic heroines

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[Cat]

 

Bingo. You've hit the nail on the head. When i saw that the final two for the role of Victoria were Rachel Kimsey and Amelia Heinle, I was shocked. Y&R was not looking for big soap names to take this role over. The show had already cut Heather Tom's pay and guarantees the year before, and that's why she left for OLTL. Y&R was looking for relatively cheaper second-tiers who skewed younger in their demos. With Bill Bell having bowed out, Y&R was in effect looking to revamp, and CBS (was Barbara Bloom already there?) was making more creative and bts decisions which soon led to Lynn Marie Latham.

 

I think it was around the time that HT left in 2004 that SC, who was on a short hiatus while her salary negotiations were ironed out, returned to Y&R. Around 2005, when AH came on board, there was further shuffling of the deck chairs on the deck. The actor who played Larry was let go and any SLs featuring Jill were backburned. Lauren Woodland (Brittany) left, perhaps for pay reasons. Y&R seemed to be trying to cut costs on the periphery without jeopardizing what it viewed as its core. But there were a fair number of departures and recasts. For example, Adrienne Leon as Colleen came on board in 2006.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Cat

[DramatistDreamer]

 

Rachel Kimsey seemed like a bubbly, effervescent person, but she was already miscast as the sometimes melancholy Mac, and good gawd... Victoria??! She shouldn't have even been an afterthought for that role!

 

Adrienne Leon was a pretty good recast, I thought but all I see, in my mind's eye, is that stupid reliquary story when I think of her time on Y&R unfortunately.

 

It seems like too often these execs and some writers want to, in essence, create a new character, without doing the work of creating a new character. Even when they create a brand new character, they don't even give serious thought as to how integrate that new character onto the canvas in a way that makes sense.

Edited March 23, 2021 by DramatistDreamer

[Cat]

 

I liked Adrienne Leon too! She was one of my fave recasts. Unfortunately, we got the reliquary SL, as you say, which involved Brad Carlton killing a bad guy with the strength of his manly man-thighs. We also got Colleen's romance with her 30-something professor which was a NO for me. Not that he wasn't cute, but the power dynamics alone... Finally, the show did Adrienne so dirty by firing her and claiming it was because of her weight (!!) when in fact rumors abounded that an Alleged Sony Benefactor wanted AL replaced with some random Aussie poptart that Sony Music was trying to launch in the US. (!!!) 

 

Re: creating a new character, sometimes I wonder if TPTB should just settle on a cardboard cutout and one of the producers voicing the lines. I remember really liking Eric Steinberg as Ji Min Kim back in the day, but Y&R just wanted a day player who was going to be killed off a few months later.

[Faulkner]

I thought AL and the super-hot Eyal Podell had major chemistry. I don’t remember the story very well (or at least how it ended), but I’m trying to remember how they handled the power dynamics between Colleen and Korbel.

[DramatistDreamer]

 

Whooh, are you speaking

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some truths!

Thank you for mentioning the unbalanced power dynamic between Colleen and Prof. Korbel! I always found that relationship to be skeevy but on the soap message board that I frequented at the time (which shall remain nameless), they loved it. 

Although I loved the chemistry between Lyndsy Fonseca and Thad Luckinbill (which was even better when the two coupled on the series Nikita), I liked the fact that Leon had some physical traits of Traci. I remember when Leon's Colleen mentioned weight in an off-handed manner, which seemed natural enough, yet I wondered if the actress was alright with expressing that idea-- did they talk that through to make sure that they weren't somehow undermining her confidence? But seeing who they replaced her with says a lot about how they truly felt.

[Forever8]

I did like Adrienne Leon too as Colleen. . I recall the character mentioning about putting on some weight since she came back to town.

 

So that's how allegedly we got Dani Sutherland from Home and Away because they were trying to make her a pop star?

 

Funny enough Tammin was starting to come into her own as Colleen for me about a few months before the character was stupidly killed off. I would've preferred she ended up in a coma until in about three months for a recast. 

 

Who killed off Ji Min? Was it David Chow? Some of the time period of YR is fuzzy to me. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Forever8

[DramatistDreamer]

 

Another forgettable storyline.

 

I did love Eric Steinberg and thought Kim Ji-Min was such a charismatic, smart and sexy character, who could of been viable individual, separate from a pairing.

 

Why is it that anytime there was a hot pairing for Jill, the guy just disappeared or got killed off?

So many poor choices, it's incredible.

 

I don't know if this was part of that same scene but I also remember a throwaway "joke" Colleen had made about her ability to gain weight just by looking at food. That was the comment that made me wonder how she felt after uttering it.

[Forever8]

 

They get rid of Eric Steinberg's Ji-Min Kim. But the show kept putting Jill back with Colin even when he made her look like a buffoon which should be the direct opposite of Jess Walton's Jill Foster-Abbott. Though I know Jess liked working with Tristan Rogers at the same time the writers didn't have to make her look dumb by association as well. 

 

I remember Colleen talking about how she gained weight since she either stopped doing ballet or left New York or something like that if I remember correctly. I wonder were they heading into a eating-disorder storyline with Adrienne's Colleen.

 

I think Lily was originally going to develop one possibly when she had first started modeling and Chloe had said something about her having too much dressing on her salad. 

[Cat]

 

They had really strong chemistry, but I was put off by the professor-student thing. I always found that whole thing icky in college -- a personal bias on my part!

 

Eyal Podell was hot, and Y&R seemed invested in the Colleen-Korbel romance, but when LML was replaced by MAB, Colleen-Korbel was backburnered. AL was replaced by Tammin Sursok which messed up the Colleen-Korbel chemistry. Korbell slept with Amber from B&B who was in a crossover with Y&R at the time (!!!) and so he and Colleen broke up. Lord, I can't believe some of these stories actually happened.

 

 

I always liked that AL was a sexy, curvy babe while her friends were bobbleheads. But I guess Y&R felt differently because they replaced her with the bobbliest bobblehead of them all! I have to imagine Y&R got this decision foisted upon them, because it really did seem like they were gearing up for a Traci-esque eating disorder SL with Colleen. Which of course they had to drop with Tammin Sursok because that poor child looked like she had never ingested a complex carbohydrate in her life. And to turn around and blame AL for 'weight gain' when the Traci issue was what some of the scripts were hinting at... I thought it was unconscionable on the part of the show.

 

 

Yep! That was the rumor at the time! Alleged Sony Benefactor eventually got Sursok on Pretty Little Liars too. LOL, I remember her briefly on Home & Away!

 

Yes, David Chow killed Ji Min, and he died in a car crash with Victor's angelic European wife, Sabrina. They gave him an Asian surname, but he turned out to be a hitman for the Mafia. (!!!!!)

Edited March 23, 2021 by Cat