Y&R March 2021 Discussion Thread

[KMan101]

 

I do miss aspects of Lester's Jack that Bergman just doesn't have, which is fine. I like Bergman as Jack but like I said, I can see why people loved Lester in the role and can't accept Bergman. I get it. I feel like I do the same with certain actors and actresses ... and I do think overtime, you become more "used" to that portrayal and it becomes comfortable.

 

Lane Davies is an interesting thought. I'm still salty GH wasted him. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by KMan101

[Faulkner]

But like with Amelia Heinle, sometimes it never becomes comfortable (at least not for me). AH has certain strengths, and there are times I even enjoy her (she does “cold bitch” extremely well), but she’s yet to take ownership of Victoria IMO, in contrast to PB as Jack. Just weird.

I think he would have split the difference between TL and PB’s portrayals in an interesting way. He would have had PB’s erudition (but not his warmth and weepiness).

Edited March 21, 2021 by Faulkner

[KMan101]

 

I wasn't going to bring her up LOL because I *always* do but I agree. AH does cold bitch well but there's just something lacking in her Victoria. I know that's apparently "what they want" but yeah no. I say comfortable because I've seen numerous comments around social media anytime I've brought up Heather/Amelia and so many are "comfortable" with them where they are. Settled. They don't see it as we do, unfortunately, lol. 

 

And it drives me nuts when I bring up Victoria Rowell and Drucilla and people dismiss her and question why Dru would even be relevant without Neil. I kid you not. People just don't ... think outside of the box/their comfort zone. Not saying she was dismissed based on race, just saying it's like people can't see what they aren't being told to see, you know?

 

Meanwhile, anyone else think Don Diamont has been showing off a bit in his Y&R visits like "see you shouldn't have lost me bitches" LOL. At least that's how I'm envisioning it

Please register in order to view this content

 

 

And watching the Traci/Lily scenes this week, while it's very nice they kept that relationship, I'm annoyed for a few reasons, lol. One was already pointed out (the optics) but the other is that all it does is remind me that Dru and Colleen should never have been killed off and both should be on-screen today. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by KMan101

[Faulkner]

Totally. HT’s Victoria was so multilayered (her rage, her sexiness, her longing, her power), but also because she was written that way. She had sort of a mythic quality that Bill Bell nurtured in all his characters. But, in the great ABCification of Y&R, they wanted her to be more of a bog-standard heroine, and she’s become superficial. She’s the constantly aggrieved businesswoman in the shadow of daddy—but she also wants love! It’s just sorta hackneyed and played-out. I wish they would play to AH’s strengths and just lean into the icy villainy more. But nO, sHe’S a HeRoInE! It doesn’t work at all.

[KMan101]

 

Summed it up perfectly.

 

It doesn't work at all.

 

Deep, deep deep down they have to know that. But at this point, she's been Victoria for what, 15/16 years? Yikes.

 

I won't lie, often-times it's read like "we're kinda stuck with her" ...

 

Interesting how I didn't mind her Victoria or Ordway's Abby under Sussman and Alden ...

Please register in order to view this content

 ... hell, they even almost turned Cane around!

Edited March 21, 2021 by KMan101

[Faulkner]

Didn’t she get a reprieve when her initial Billy pairing took off? She’s still coasting on that reprieve a decade later...

 

My idea was to make her Y&R’s Cersei Lannister with some mild dashes of Alexandra Spaulding and the older Tracy Quartermaine. Make her totally vicious and power-hungry, fiercely protective of her children and their birthrights, and more of a formidable foe to Victor instead of this cowed pathetic thing she often plays. Bringing on all these iterations of Adam sort of sapped her, as he became the most dynamic Newman power player, and now she’s this odd earth mother—not only to her kids but also to her man-child, Billy Abbott.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Faulkner

[Vee]

I think the only reason Heinle has survived is the pairing with Billy Miller. Now they'll never extricate her, because they finally got the latter-years ABC Daytime-style heroine and pairing they craved.

 

Heinle can play the ice queen, but I don't think she can play much dimension anymore. Or if she can the writing is simply not there, and the network refuses to move her away from Billy and back into a role as nuanced as HT's portrayal. I'd still recast her, but in reality it's just never going to happen.

 

[Ponds]

AH has about 4 facial expressions that she uses all the time.  To me, that's not acting.  I will never, ever, like her as Victoria.  I truly hope Billy remains with Lily because if he returns to Victoria that might be the final straw for me!

[DramatistDreamer]

Following this discussion made me think about just how much is the function of the writing and how much is tied to the actor's ability.

First off, I'd say that PB benefited from at least a few years more of better writing overall than AH. Then again, I just can't see TL putting up with a storyline like Jack/Marco-- TL likely would have walked away from the show first. Aside from that, TL had a a charisma that allowed him to play Jack as having an easy, breezy charm, so much so that he was endearing despite being a cad at times.

 

Putting aside whatever she is doing or not doing at B&B, HT had the ability to portray Victoria as steely, yet vulnerable. Back then I took it for granted that all actors had this ability, future soap actors would prove me wrong on that one.

 

I think an aspect that both actors had in common (and I guess good actors in general) is the ability to convincingly show different emotions, especially contradictory emotions at once.

 

I get the sense that either the actress or the director, showrunner, etc. seems to prefer that Victoria be played one way at a time, and it usually involves being fragile. And it had been that way seemingly since the show brought Victoria back to GC as some boho-incarnate.

 

Jack has also grown increasingly fragile, in a way, seemingly almost never with emotions in check, a ready tear waiting to spill out of the eyes. Again, I have difficulty picturing TL's Jack being Phyllis's 2nd or third choice of romantic partner. His Jack wouldn't even have waited for Phyllis to get the words, he would've immediately started pursuing someone else.

[FrenchBug82]

I agree with everyone's takes here obviously.
I blame the problem with Victoria more on the writing - they clearly weren't interested in the complexities HT had brought the character - but it is clear that AH doesn't manage to transcend the material. She can act but the je-ne-sais-quoi is missing.
I think something similar happened at the beginning of the TL-PB transition whereby some of layers were removed in the writing and Jack was written as a less complicated character but PB definitely can act and has had good chemistry with almost everybody so it hasn't bothered me. It is more a what-could-have-been than anything that frustrates me right now.
Otoh Victoria still bugs me to this day because she could be so much more.
That scene HT slaps Eric B.'s Victor. Could you imagine AH playing that at all? Not even playing it well - just them writing it, EB letting it happen and them selling it as believable and significant? You couldn't.
It is ironic we are talking about this today because this is the 16th anniversary of AH's debut as Vicky in 2005. She has played the character for SIXTEEN years (vs 13 for HT). I can't wrap my head around it. I can count the number of stories of Victoria as played by AH that I remember and cared about on the fingers of one hand.
 

Edited March 22, 2021 by FrenchBug82

[Paul Raven]

I recall that when Bergman took over as Jack the cynicism and snarkiness inherent in the character was still there and Bergman did his best to portray that. In fact after playing wishy washy Cliff for 10 years he revelled in it. But I think Bill Bell saw that was not innate as it had been with Lester and allowed a more vulnerable Jack to appear.

Stories were then written for Jack that softened him - eg the Luan romance. Not that Lester wouldn't have played that, but his Jack would have brought different colors to the relationship. 

 

Amelia has none of the steeliness and fire of Heather, simple as that.

 

Look at Eileen Davidson. Her Ashley is definitive. Brenda Epperson did a fine job but she simply could not bring to the role what Eileen did. And as Peter said, you never know what Eileen will bring to a scene.

 

But I feel for the actors today. Someone like Michael Mealor under Bill Bell would have a much more defined character and have way more rehearsal and preparation time to finesse his performances.

 

 

[FrenchBug82]

And ironically nobody has been harder on that story than PB himself who felt it was completely contrary to the character as had been established. I wonder if he didn't just resent the retcon based on defending his character but also because part of him understood that story as an implied criticism of his attempts at emulating Lester's portrayal.
I think the reason the softening of Jack (particularly when it comes to women) works for me is because the passing of time can mature a man in that way. Some of the stories of PB's first few years (like Victor taking over Jabot) also helped make it make sense that Jack would change somewhat. So I bought it. And Jack is still an interesting character.

Victoria nowadays is written as someone things happen to rather than a layered character. I could take a newer version of the character if there was some effort made to create a new version. But it is often so inconsistent depending on the story of the hour. 

The problem with today's Victoria is that I don't know and don't understand what I am supposed to draw from the portrayal. I am OK with some personality traits being more prevalent in one actress' version than the other but there is nothing right now that is being told to us about the character. She is whatever the latest writer needs her to be. I think AH can act but I am disappointed she has not been able to give us a consistent picture of who Victoria is even through the stretches of bad writing. It doesn't have to be HT's version but there has to be a thoroughline. 

 

Ironically, I think BE was a succesful recast inasmuch she did change the character by bringing her more warmth while still having a full realized portrayal of Ashley. She was not the dynamo actress ED is in terms of acting but you knew what she was portraying of Ashley. It was not necessarily the same character entirely - or rather she put the focus on a different side of Ashley than ED - but it was coherent and interesting (and I loved her chemistry with Victor).
I'd compare it with what GT did with Phyllis. It worked for me because while it was different from the original it felt like it was merely her choosing to spotlight a different side of Phyllis rather than playing a completely different character and it was interesting and a fully composed character. She was playing Phyllis at a different stage of her life (like PB is playing an older Jack).
 

[Paul Raven]

Well Peter and Brenda had the benefit of being written for by Bill Bell, whereas Amelia came in at a time when there was constant change of writers so a clear vision for her Victoria could never evolve.

Even so I think she was just a bad recast.

Gina Tognoni would have nailed it.

And I hated Victoria/Billy for many reasons- mainly the screwing up of ages just to have a Newman and Abbott hooking up.

[Faulkner]

As bad as the JT/domestic violence story was, its conclusion (and Victoria’s subsequent stint on the backburner) was the perfect opportunity for the right writer to reset Victoria. Unfortunately, we got JG, who regressed the entire show, and so it was more of the same. Victoria tries, lamely, to assert herself in business. Victoria uses her kids to reel in Billy.
 

JG just flat-out doesn’t care about Nick or Nikki. He’s got such a hard-on for Adam. I’m not gonna complain about the lack of Nick, as I don’t enjoy him much, but Nikki deserves better.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Faulkner

[Forever8]

It's sad when you go back to watch Amelia Heinle on Loving as Steffi Brewster she had so much charisma and potential as an actress it makes you do a double-take.