October 5-9, 2009

[Y&RWorldTurner]

Ratings, quality can be subjective.

The fact that DAYS is up over 500,000 viewers from a year ago and close to taking the #2 spot from B&B says something....

[SteveFrame]

Back to my discussion before and a little more based on the comments and stuff.

CarlD -- maybe not here but yes many GL fans have said that LMAD needs to fail and that GL may come back if GL fans let CBS know they are not going to watch whatever is in that hour.

As to not having a defetist attitude and people looking at Days this last year to point at the fact that not all soaps are dead or going to die.

The difference with Days and the other soaps is that the other soaps are not letting what is happening at Days happen on them. And the thing at Days can change at any time.

I have said over and over and over that Days could turn around IF and WHEN Sony, Corday and NBC let one person come in and say what was going to happen. Right now it seems from all the gossip and all that Days right now is operating as one vision and it is succeding. When Days succeeded before Ken Corday sat back and let things happen. Remember he has been there a long time -- only when he started interfering and NBC started interfering and Sony started interfering did things start to tank.

You cannot take and have 3 owning companies decide a vision for the show. And all try to force that vision on the show and make it work. Look at the last few years. Corday brought JER back at the seeming insistance of NBC and it didn't work because they butted heads constantly. Plus they didn't have the balls to let things happen and stick to it. When fans got riled they gave in and made changes -- changes that nearly cost the show. From every piece of gossip out there it is clear that Hogan and Corday didn't get along either. They both kept putting out conflicting reports about what was going to happen. Finally Sony steps in and puts their man in there and then you had Corday, Hogan and Ed Scott all butting heads.

Right now it seems that Corday, NBC and Sony are letting Tomlin, Whitesell, and Higley do their thing. And the lack of turmoil backstage is evidently showing up on screen and all. I'm not watching but from what I hear from everyone who likes it it is great.

Yes many fans are still mad. The fan bases are bitching. But Corday is not jumping the gun this time. It seems like his balls are attached for once.

Now the reason that you cannot have a defetist attitude in regards to the other shows is that you still have the factors of the networks and owners interfering and seemingly not caring. They are interfering with writers and forcing their visions on the show and not letting things happen as they should. Also with the P&G show ATWT they are sticking with the status quo and not making changes that needed to be made a long time ago. Moving the writer of GL who clearly had flaws over to ATWT is not the right move and is not going to save the show. B&B just continues the same old same old over and over with nothing new. It is obvious Brad Bell is played out with these characters and he is not even taking a lesson from his Dad in that after awhile you have to breathe some new life into them. Let couples move in and grow and advance.

The 2nd generation of Bells clearly learned nothing from their father at all. They obviously don't care about Y&R at all. They would have never let CBS, Sony and Latham do all the damage they did if they did care. And now they are doing more damage to the show themselves than Latham ever did.

And Frons and his minons Carruthers, McTavish, Valenti, Higley, Pratt, Carlivati, Guza, and Phelps have destroyed ABC daytime. And I don't see any of them stepping down and as long as they are all there -- there is no hope for any of the shows getting any better. I loved Carlivati in the beginning just like I did Maria Bell. But even though he still uses some of the vets in some ways to me is no better than Higley in that Higley turned OLTL over to her characters and CArlivati is doing the same thing. Even when Vicki and Dorian are used it is more of a prop now to Carlivati's newer characters and not anything that helps their character at all. Each one of the 3 ABC shows are about the writer's faves and Fron's faves. Nothing has changed and nothing will ever change. Even if Zach Slater does leave AMC I have no doubt in my mind that Frons won't move heaven and earth to move Thorsten Kaye to OLTL where he will be a character rip-off of Zach and take over the stories on OLTL.

None of the shows are even attempting to do what Days has done in the last year. And I have lost so much faith in the genre that sorry I don't have the faith that they ever will. And without making changes there is no hope for the other 7 soaps. So how can you not get a defetist attitude when the people behind the soaps don't care.

[jfung79]

As I pointed out before, the ratings in 2006 were also stabilized, and GL was back in the pack with other shows by the end of that year. It wasn't just Emmys showing that GL wasn't in continuous decline for the whole decade, as some like to argue.

As for not caring about demos, that would be a change for CBS, since it was probably demo-obsession that had CBS giving up on GL and continuing to cut the budget and not giving any money for the anniversary, when GL was in the pack with other soaps in total viewers in late 2006.

Also, CBS hoped that Drew Carey would draw in a younger crowd, that's why they selected him as a replacement for TPIR. So they do care about the demos.

[SteveFrame]

CBS wouldn't have been the ones to give GL money for it's budget. The budget for GL was determined by P&G -- not CBS. The only thing that CBS did was license to use GL on it's schedule.

P&G would have been the ones who determined if GL got money for it's anniversary -- not CBS.

CBS would have looked at the ratings to determine if the show was still profitable to pay the licensing fee and that would have been it. P&G would have looked at them to determine what they could charge CBS to air their show. That was the extent of CBS's involvement there. Based on what CBS is willing to pay to air GL then P&G determines how much they can give the show.

ALL that in the end that CBS did was to say we no longer are going to air GL. We won't pay to license the show any longer. And evidently there wasn't enough in regards to demos, etc. to interest another network to license the show either and thus P&G had to choose to end GL.

That is how it works with Days too. NBC can still pay hardball with Corday and Sony when negotiations come around. If NBC chooses to not honor what they pay Days now or decides that cost they are paying is still not worth it -- then Corday will have to make a choice of either cutting the show more to mmet what NBC is willing to pay or choose to cancel it or market it elsewhere. Corday will set the budget for DAys next year based on what he can sell the show to NBC for.

The total thing is opposite with ABC. They own all 3 shows and yes ABC does determine the budget for their shows. They don't license them.

The thing with LMAD is that CBS does own it and thus the ratings for it can be a little lower and it still make more money than GL did. It is already cheaper to produce so it doesn't require as big of rating or as much advertising money. Plus there is an advatage to advertisers with a game show. They get double exposure. Their products are advertised during the show and during commercials too.

[DRW50]

The problem is that the networks can, and will, use this justification to get rid of any soap. If NBC decides to can DAYS in favor of endless Housewives repeats, then they can say oh it had a great run, it ran its course. Even though the show has improved quite a bit in the ratings over the past year.

[Ann_SS]

.

I am always amazed by how so many fans on SON give the Bells a pass for the mess that Y&R has become. This generation of the Bell family is all about raking in the profit as they let faceless Sony take the blame.

I have really surprised by Higley's writing at Days. I commented on the Days thread that the show does not have much misogyny and that show has vision and direction. I can't believe that it is the same Higley who wrote OLTL. On Days, the female characters drive the stories unlike OLTL where the male characters dominate everything. It is quite stunning. Even if Days did not have a ratings revival, the quality of the storytelling has improved tremendously. It is unfortunate the only thing that the other networks will take from Days is that it is okay to fire veteran actors.

[SteveFrame]

Days went back to classic soap opera storytelling. That is strong women dominating story and that is the way the classic soaps were. You had strong men but everything centered around a strong woman. Although EJ and Rafe and so many have been parts of the story this year the central characters in that story have been the women -- Sami, Nicole, and even the minor women in the stories. Plus yes they got rid of vets but they restored adn used the vets they had properly esp. Maggie, Victor and Stefano. They restored Sami from the crying winy mess that Sheffer had turned her into where she couldn't even fart without Lucas and EJ saying it was okay. Stefano and Victor were no longer OLD MEN as Sheffer saw them but the powerful men they had been and drove and provided the strength their families needed.

Although you see a lot of Sami and Nicole you don't feel like (or at least I didn't while I was watching) dominated by them. They interact with other characters and their story touches so many and those people just aren't reading letters or just there -- they are integral parts of the story.

You are right that the only thing the other shows are seeing is that you can fire vets but they aren't taking the principle of what to do or to change about the show to cover for those vets. Firing a vet and then just giving more air time to the flavor of the day only angers fans and makes their disappearance even more apparent.

And the shows also are not learning from the history. P&G esp. never did.

1979 is a pivotal year in looking at the history of soaps esp. in regards to P&G. GH was soaring with what P&G took as a youth directed storyline. They didn't see that the real reason they were soaring was that yes you had a youth oriented storyline centered around Scotty and Laura but that the heart of the storyline was the veteran character Lesley Webber. When Laura killed her lover, Lesley took the blame and went on trial to save her daughter. Laura became even more frail in many ways in her relationship with Scotty due to what had happened and the fact that she was living a lie. Lesley's husband Rick felt neglected and jealous because Lesley was sacrificing everything for Laura. Thus he turned to Monica -- his ex-lover -- and began an affiar and inpregnated her or at least thought he did. At the center of all the stories was the longtime heroine of the show Lesley Webber.

Well P&G decided they wanted the youth market so they suddenly decided to cast out anyone they saw as old on their shows in 1979 and replace them with younger characters and faces. On EON they got rid of veteran Mandel Kramer who had played the police chief and replaced him the younger good looking sexy Dennis Parker as Derek Mallory. At SFT they got rid of Carl Low -- Jo's other confidante Dr. Bob Rogers. At ATWT they dumped John Colenback as Dan Stewart and let original cast member William Johnstone go and just fade from view along with Lisa's mother Alma Miller. Kim Stewart was given a new love interest with the sexy Nick Andropolous who's younger kid brother came along in tow. On Another World, fans had long hoped for Pat and John to get back together, but Michael M. Ryan was fired and his chaarcter killed off. Pat soon got a new sexier leading man in Robert Gentry and Lee Patterson as Michael M. Ryan was much older and not as sexy.

In the next 2 years P&G would dump even more veteran older characters and performers: Beverly Penberthy (AW), Helen Wagner (ATWT), Don MacLaughlin (ATWT), David Bailey (AW), James Douglas (ATWT), Marie Masters (ATWT), Kelly Wood (ATWT), Barbara Rodell (ATWT), Conard Fowkes (ATWT), Barbara Berjer (GL), Stephen Schnabel (GL), Robert Milli (GL), Billee Lou Watt (SFT), and many others.

Mart Hulswit was deemed too unsexy even though he was still very popular but his widening belly and his thinning hair was no longer acceptable and he was fired as Ed Bauer to be replaced with the younger sexier Peter Simon.

All the P&G shows brought on more and more new characters and younger characters, and over the next few years phased out more and more of their veteran characters. GL was the only one that made it work for awhile, but so many of the changes in the early 80's really hurt them in the long run.

By 1984, GL only had one character Ed Bauer with any ties to the past -- the rest were from the late 70's and forward. AW only had Liz,Rachel and Ada with any ties to AW's beginnings.

A whole set of viewers were alienated and driven away. Many did go to work but many moved on to other shows or just quit watching. Ratings dropped for many of these shows and never ever recovered.

[JackPeyton]

and if they do that they have the right to do so.

they wpuld be stupid to do so with it being one of the few shows on its ENTIRE line up to gain an audiance, but if they did it then oh well. it sucks. but im not going to blame the hose of whatever show tey air in days spot.

GL deserved to get the ax, it was on borrowed time for years. Its no ones fault but P&G. they ran it into the ground. They are to blame.

[REALTOR Rich]

Me, too. Consider this: on the East Coast, high schoolers return home to see the end of ATWT or OLTL. At 3:00, they can see GH without any competition! This is the first time in its 46-year history that this has happened. If GH can't capitalize on this, then the genre is surely dead.

[Soapsuds]

It doesnt look like GH is capitlaizing on GL cancellation. They continue to drop. Their competition here is LMAD.

[Gray Bunny]

Wow, congrats to DAYS! As a longtime viewer, I'm happy for their success and hope they get renewed. I still can't say I'm compelled to tune in every day, but Lord knows my parents still do, so there's hope for me!

Regarding the GL/LMAD controversy... the reason behind the hate is so simple, and has already been mentioned: a ratings success for Let's Make A Deal would mean the networks would be more compelled to axe As the World Turns, All My Children, One Life to Live, General Hospital, etc. etc. etc. for a cheap game show that brings in direct money for the network. No crazy budget cuts, no fan outcry, just mediocre viewership that results in good enough revenue. Sure, they won't last 50 years, but their potential future would promise more years of financial stability than the soaps which continue to decline, decline, decline.

That said, I agree that DAYS has finally got it right and I do think the network *wants* to keep it alive, as long as it is somewhat profitable.

Oh, and what's going on at B&B these days to deem it "quality" TV? I'd try to check it out, but you can always find shirtless screencaps of their hunks online, and isn't that the only thing B&B is good for these days?

[jfung79]

This is splitting hairs. If CBS says it's going to slash the license fee it will pay when renewing the pickup for a show, then it has to expect that P&G will pass on that cut in the license fee to give GL a lower budget.

Furthermore, CBS could have promoted the anniversary on its own, as marketing, because ultimately CBS would have benefitted from GL doing well, not just P&G. Didn't CBS help pay to send the actors to Universal Studios in March (as a last sop, to say they tried when they already knew they were canceling the show)? So it's not the case that only P&G can pay for something GL-related. So even if P&G is to blame too, that doesn't excuse CBS.

Ellen Wheeler's "Find Your Light" community service campaign, the website for viewer video submissions, the actors with their "That's my light, what's yours?" stuff during commercial breaks, and the 70th anniversary Irna Phillips episode, were an amazing improvisation using the show's limited resources. None of that came from CBS. This was an opportunity to invest in growing the show's future at this critical time when it was back in the ratings pack, and CBS passed.

[SteveFrame]

Sorry but a lot of that does not even make sense -- from a business standpoint. CBS would be stupid to continue over and over putting money into a show that is not showing enough profit. You can't just keep on putting money into something over and over and risk losing the whole network to save one show.

CBS had to cancel Without A Trace for the same thing. The show cost a lot to produce but the ratings were not there so they chose to cancel the show to go with something that didn't cost as much money to produce. I have read that several places.

In this time when ratings are lower, advertisers are spending less or more frugal with their advertising dollars, and there is more competition the networks are having to make some tough decisions.

I can understand the anger and the sadness over losing the show you love and you have the right to blame whoever you want.

But sorry GL's cancellation can be aimed at P&G, Wheeler, Kreizman, and the producers and all that went before them. They are the ones that got GL cancelled.

And the other powers that be are the ones that are killing the other shows. They are the ones making viewers quit watching and other viewers not coming to them. Sorry but I can't blame the networks when they decide to cut their losses when the powers that be behind daytime are the ones killing the shows.

The shows are killing themselves and in the end they are going no matter what is replacing them. And sorry but some of them need to be killed at this point.

[Cyberologist]

This is when I always know GH is tanking he opens up his mouth check this out Part 1 and 2

http://www.hulu.com/stand_alone/1151508f7d5079636dc4c275d3ede364?lcname=SitePlayer_lcname_mc_135234_814&continuous_play_mode=4#157

[marceline]

It's ironic that NBC has been the most open about its desire to get out of the soap game yet its last remaining soap is the only one making a case for staying on the air. Who'd have guessed it?