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19 minutes ago, Mitch said:

how the hell could Marland think that Holmes would make a good Tom after seeing Marx play him?

 

Believe it or not, I thought about this a few times and after watching one of the reunion livestreams last year, and hearing Gregg Marx say that Marland offered to hold his role open for him for nearly a year, in case Marx changed his mind and elected to return, I can only think that it may have been a combination of factors-- one big one, perhaps being that Marland was pressured to fill the role quickly, after leaving it vacant for so long.

Another factor that I thought of was actor availability. Perhaps the top choices were all booked, and SH was available and seemed to have relatively decent chemistry with HBS, his on-screen wife Margo? So, perhaps he seemed to be a serviceable choice at the time.

Something else that came to mind when Gregg Marx was talking about how unusual Marland's offer was- Marland may simply have decided that he wasn't going to find another available actor with the same appeal and chemistry that Marx had in the role, so he may have decided to just take the character in a completely different direction, personality and temperament-wise. And it seems somewhat evident when you consider how quickly Tom and Margo slid into the role of a middle aged, more settled couple after ED settled into the role of Margo. Soon after, Tom and Margo ceased to be that fiery couple, full of passion and pathos that they had been in the previous decade.

 

For me, it was definitely a come down.

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Posted (edited)

Seeing SH first appearance as Tom and he comes off as too old to play him. There wouldn't have been a Margo/Hal affair/attempted pairing/triangle with Tom if Marx had returned.

 

Edited by Soapsuds
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47 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

For me, it was definitely a come down.

Who would have been a good recast at that time? I am trying to think of someone similar to Marx..but can't. He brought something to Tom and just a "good guy" soap leading man which is really hard...he played a nice guy who loved his wife who wasn't boring and he still had a bit of an edge to him without being an [!@#$%^&*], and he was sexy without treating women like dirt.  I thought later on that David Andrew McDonald believe or not would be a good Tom..when Eddie briefly and out of character became a nice "boyfriend" guy, DAM played it great...of course Dolan would have had to been recast too but...

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I do very much prefer Gregg Marx as Tom, but I tend to put more blame on Marland than on Scott Holmes or Ellen Dolan for taking the spark out of Tom and Margo. I'd actually say it's the incredibly heavy material in 1986 that does this even while HBS and Marx are still in the role - it's a world away from how feisty and fun the couple were able to be under the previous regimes, even in stories like Margo losing her hearing. Once you go through a late-term miscarriage, it's difficult to return to being the bantering couple. The stories Marland had lined up regardless of whoever played Tom (Margo running off because she was carrying Hal's child, Tom learning that he was a father of a teenage daughter from his stint in Vietnam) only furthered the divide. 

 

I think Holmes and Dolan managed to make Tom and Margo seem relateable and mostly good-natured, believable in banter and married-with-kids-and-jobs life, until the backbreakingly heavy material returned again with Margo's rape and HIV. Then Dolan left and nothing ever really recovered. 

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24 minutes ago, Mitch said:

Who would have been a good recast at that time? I am trying to think of someone similar to Marx..but can't. He brought something to Tom and just a "good guy" soap leading man which is really hard...he played a nice guy who loved his wife who wasn't boring and he still had a bit of an edge to him without being an [!@#$%^&*], and he was sexy without treating women like dirt.  I thought later on that David Andrew McDonald believe or not would be a good Tom..when Eddie briefly and out of character became a nice "boyfriend" guy, DAM played it great...of course Dolan would have had to been recast too but...

Bryan Cranston was cast as Tom until they found Scott. I think Bryan would've been the better choice.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Sorry but there's no earthly way that Holmes and Dolan could've pulled off the sexiness that either Colin and Deas or Bailey and Marx portrayed. No disrespect intended, but no one will ever convince me otherwise.

 

Dolan was perfect for the matriarchal role that she portrayed as Maureen Bauer but she bears no resemblance in mannerisms or characteristics to either Colin or Bailey-Smith. I don't think it's just the writing, although I do think the writing eventually was adjusted to suit Holmes and Dolan's perceived strengths.

Edited by DramatistDreamer
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33 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Sorry but there's no earthly way that Holmes and Dolan could've pulled off the sexiness that either Colin and Deas or Bailey and Marx portrayed. No disrespect intended, but no one will ever convince me otherwise

 

I would agree with you on that front. What I'm saying is I think that aspect of the relationship had already been phased out by Marland even with HBS and Marx in the parts and would have just continued more down that path with the future stories he had planned for the couple. I don't believe he had much interest in a sexy or flirty Tom and Margo, and if he did, he lost that element of his writing more with each passing year. 

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On 3/26/2021 at 11:04 PM, DramatistDreamer said:

That scene where Lucinda informs her new butler that she calls all her butlers "Matthew", despite the fact that his name is Steven.

 

Great episode.

 

Has anyone ever been luckier than Lily?  Torn between Holden and Dusty.  When I was her age that would have been my dream!  As a grown ass man now though- Holden is a man, and Lily is such a girl still.  It’s creepy.  I know things were different back then but still.

 

I hope there are scenes of Lisa letting Barbara have it once the truth comes out, especially after making her feel so guilty.  Barbara works so well as entitled and leaning in to her nasty side.  That was also a great scene with Lisa, Chris and Nancy.

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26 minutes ago, titan1978 said:

I hope there are scenes of Lisa letting Barbara have it once the truth comes out, especially after making her feel so guilty. 

 

Unfortunately, I don't think those episodes are on YouTube. If they are, I have yet to see them. There may a very short part of a scene when it's mentioned that Barbara had confessed to Kim and Bob about her part in driving a wedge between Tom and Margo.

There are many pivotal scenes missing from YouTube.

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4 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Sorry but there's no earthly way that Holmes and Dolan could've pulled off the sexiness that either Colin and Deas or Bailey and Marx portrayed. No disrespect intended, but no one will ever convince me otherwise.

 

Dolan was perfect for the matriarchal role that she portrayed as Maureen Bauer but she bears no resemblance in mannerisms or characteristics to either Colin or Bailey-Smith. I don't think it's just the writing, although I do think the writing eventually was adjusted to suit Holmes and Dolan's perceived strengths.

 

Dolan at least had a dry sense of humor..that was more dead pan than what Colin and Bailey-Smith had.  I think the PTSD story with Margo was what drove away the last of Margo's humored zest.

 

Holmes was handsome, but sexy isn't what I would have used to describe his Tom.  I could have seen Emily going for Marx's Tom though

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I do think Marland lost the ability to write humor and banter.  Look what he ended up doing to Shannon before she was 'killed' off.

 

I never saw a lot of humor on his ATWT...everyone was so earnest like a Thomas Kinkaide photo.  

 

 

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As someone that had only seen Holmes and Dolan’s versions until YouTube, I now understand why they were such major characters.  I did enjoy Dolan’s dry, sarcastic portrayal, but Holmes was just a bore.  Nothing like the more iconic duos before them.

 

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 Seeing Iva tell Lucinda that she can remember the day and the hour she gave birth to Lily makes it even dumber that there was ever a Rose. The reason why Iva failed to remember she had two whole babies was absurd.

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18 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

I do think Marland lost the ability to write humor and banter.  Look what he ended up doing to Shannon before she was 'killed' off.

 

I never saw a lot of humor on his ATWT...everyone was so earnest like a Thomas Kinkaide photo.  

 

I almost said that Marland and "humor" should not be mentioned in the same sentence, but then I remember some stuff he did on GL when he was redeeming Nola and she was in London doing something with Quint...there is a slap stick fight between Nola and some other woman that was funny and campy and poking fun at the Dynasty cat fights...and I think..did Marland have a sick day? His ATWT is so earnestly morose especially in comparison to GL at the time, which, however badly written it was in periods..had a zestiness that was lacking in its sister soap. What happened to him? He even takes the fun out of Lisa..who I must say, had to put 50,000 miles on her car every year zipping back and forth between her businesses, the hospital, Bob and Kim's, Tom and Margos, and whomever else's business she was getting into.

 

 

12 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 Seeing Iva tell Lucinda that she can remember the day and the hour she gave birth to Lily makes it even dumber that there was ever a Rose. The reason why Iva failed to remember she had two whole babies was absurd.

I agree, but at least it is better then the tired old...there is an exact unrelated double of a character impersonating them. Maybe Iva and Alex had the same doctor deliver their kids?

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48 minutes ago, Mitch said:

I almost said that Marland and "humor" should not be mentioned in the same sentence, but then I remember some stuff he did on GL when he was redeeming Nola and she was in London doing something with Quint...there is a slap stick fight between Nola and some other woman that was funny and campy and poking fun at the Dynasty cat fights...and I think..did Marland have a sick day? His ATWT is so earnestly morose especially in comparison to GL at the time, which, however badly written it was in periods..had a zestiness that was lacking in its sister soap. What happened to him? He even takes the fun out of Lisa..who I must say, had to put 50,000 miles on her car every year zipping back and forth between her businesses, the hospital, Bob and Kim's, Tom and Margos, and whomever else's business she was getting into.

 

 

I agree, but at least it is better then the tired old...there is an exact unrelated double of a character impersonating them. Maybe Iva and Alex had the same doctor deliver their kids?

 

And Sharon Collins, on Y&R.

Personally, I think it has rarely been employed well as a device. ATWT was particularly dumb, since we have actual scenes of Iva insisting that she could clearly recall every detail of giving birth to Lily. At least with Sharon, the specifics of her giving birth were never clarified in detail, so it didn't look as idiotic when TPTB attempted to rewrite the story.

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