5 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

When its principle competition, General Hospital, was a media sensation and getting monster ratings, TGL actually did pretty well.

RATINGS PRE- AND POST GAIL KOBE & HER SCRIBES

1979/80 Ratings: 8.3 (TGL)

1981/82: 8.3

1981/82: 8.0

1982/83: 7.4

1983/84: 8.1

1984/85: 7.5

1985/86: 6.8

1986/87: 6.3

In the early 1980s, after Douglas Marland and then Pat Falken Smith departed General Hospital, that show lost its luster and started drifting down in the ratings. Ironically, even with weakened competition, TGL's ratings started taking a hit, too.

From 1983 to 1986, with Gail Kobe as producer and Pamela Long, Richard Culliton and Jeff Ryder as writers, our show went from 8.1 to 6.8 to 6.3.

After Kobe mercifully left in 1987, Long returned, but the rating remained low: 6.2.

It's true that in 1983/84, TGL went from 7.4 (in 1982/83) to 8.1, but then dropped even lower, to 6.8 and later, 6.3.

When TGL was facing its stiffest competition from GH (1979-82), it was well-written and produced, and enjoyed healthy ratings. After the change in producers and writers, however, the show lost a shocking two points by the end of the Kobe/Long/Culliton/Ryder era in 1987.

It's accurate to say that the characters and concepts foisted on the show in the Kobe, etc., period remained front and center until TGL finally got cancelled, but was that a good thing? Kobe first gutted the soap of most of its pre-1983 history, and then subsequent PTB continued to focus on certain character types and themes that the overall audience seemed not to enjoy. The ratings' continued decline clearly indicated over the next few decades that something was not working.

In my honest opinion, the fact that this once-popular soap was finally laid to rest with ratings of 1.6 in 2009 attests to the fact that Kobe's concept of the show ultimately decimated it and started its serious blood-letting. 

It never really recovered from the 1980s' debacles.

(This is not to say that future writers and producers were innocent of inflicting additional damage. There are plenty of guilty players.)

Part of the problem is the expansion to one hour. When the show was 15 and 30 minutes, a small family like the Bauers could be the main focus. Especially 15 minutes. In fact, the show was basically all about the Bauers from the late 40s to the 60s. With the time expansions, they had to add more characters as filler for time as the Bauers were too small a family at that time to be the focus. For some reason, the previous writers (Irna, Agnes) didn't expand the Bauers through births so it was kind of inevitable with the time expansions that they would lose their centerpiece status. Then, inexplicably, what few Bauers there were were written out and not brought back. Making the situation worse. I'm actually surprised the Bauers had a presence at all till the end. The Matthews of AW basically didn't exist toward the end. I think AW lasting as long as it did is actually a bigger miracle. I just think TGL worked better as a 15-minute show. Bad writing was definitely a major part of the decline but I think there were other factors like the time expansions. Even Marland, who did such great things with the Hughes family, didn't really do much for the Bauers. Maybe because there weren't that many players to work with. But he should have brought Bill Bauer back and he should have had Kelly be an illegitimate child of Ed's instead of his godson. It's kind of weird how differently Marland treated the Bauers and the Hughes. 

But I actually think it's miraculous that TGL lasted as long as it did in its entirety. Not just the last 25 years. I don't think it was ever number one in the ratings. Even in its glory years. In fact, it was always sort of middle of the pack. Sometimes towards the bottom. And then it actually DID get cancelled twice and came back. It was just the show that kind of flew under the radar and resiliently outlasted them all. That is, until Ellen Wheeler finally killed it. 

Edited December 18, 20241 yr by Reverend Ruthledge

All this talk about Geri Betzler who played the infamous Lacey Bauer - I googled her to see what she did after Guiding Light

Apparently she died on Sept 2023 at age 57

Geralyn Betzler | Obituary | Minnesota Star Tribune

 

12 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

As you pointed out, Sam did have a history of being attracted to bad boys. And as long as it is explained logically and causes a ricochet across the canvas, I am all for it. 

Of course, I would have needed to de-age Andy slightly, so the relationship with Samantha wouldn't be too creepy (although, the age difference still would have been but one of many obstacles).  Sometimes, though, it's just like what Bill Bell told his son, Bradley: it all begins with putting two names together on a piece of paper.

Another idea I had was to introduce the now-grown Emily Mason (Norris) as an FBI agent and Gus Aitoro's ex-partner/ex-girlfriend.  I would've toyed a bit with a Gus/Harley/Emily triangle, but my plan was to cement her as the new Bauer family matriarch (via marriage to Rick) and Springfield police chief.  And yes, her mother, Janet, would have returned on a recurring basis, as a recovering alcoholic, like her mother, Ellen, before her.

Edited December 18, 20241 yr by Khan

9 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

I'm curious: what about TGL's last did did you appreciate?

(No snark intended, BTW. I found a few elements in the final days of certain shows, which made me briefly feel like they were "my soaps" again. It made me appreciate sticking around to the bitter end.)

Mainly the returns, some of which were not what the actors deserved (like Holly), but I still appreciated that they were done, and some I found oddly touching, especially now (like Nola). And Vanessa and Billy getting back together. Even Frank and Blake, which was obviously just a filler and part of needing to pair everyone off at the end, I appreciated, as I loved their relationship when Sherry was in the role. There's certainly plenty I could pan, but I suppose I just appreciated that someone still seemed to care, which I was missing in ATWT's last year. And I didn't feel as repulsed by the show in ways I often did in the mid '90s or much of the '00s.

1 hour ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

Part of the problem is the expansion to one hour. When the show was 15 and 30 minutes, a small family like the Bauers could be the main focus. Especially 15 minutes. In fact, the show was basically all about the Bauers from the late 40s to the 60s. With the time expansions, they had to add more characters as filler for time as the Bauers were too small a family at that time to be the focus. For some reason, the previous writers (Irna, Agnes) didn't expand the Bauers through births so it was kind of inevitable with the time expansions that they would lose their centerpiece status. Then, inexplicably, what few Bauers there were were written out and not brought back. Making the situation worse. I'm actually surprised the Bauers had a presence at all till the end. The Matthews of AW basically didn't exist toward the end. I think AW lasting as long as it did is actually a bigger miracle. I just think TGL worked better as a 15-minute show. Bad writing was definitely a major part of the decline but I think there were other factors like the time expansions. Even Marland, who did such great things with the Hughes family, didn't really do much for the Bauers. Maybe because there weren't that many players to work with. But he should have brought Bill Bauer back and he should have had Kelly be an illegitimate child of Ed's instead of his godson. It's kind of weird how differently Marland treated the Bauers and the Hughes. 

But I actually think it's miraculous that TGL lasted as long as it did in its entirety. Not just the last 25 years. I don't think it was ever number one in the ratings. Even in its glory years. In fact, it was always sort of middle of the pack. Sometimes towards the bottom. And then it actually DID get cancelled twice and came back. It was just the show that kind of flew under the radar and resiliently outlasted them all. That is, until Ellen Wheeler finally killed it. 

I think expanding to an hour was a bad idea for most of the soaps. It's a punishing expansion. I notice no international soaps, even as they have made many of the same mistakes that killed the American soap genre, never made that mistake. 

Only Josie was there for the Matthews, and she barely ever interacted with them. She was also in a very bad state (frankly she never had a good state...), similar to the Bauers in their last years.

I agree AW surviving so long was the bigger miracle.

I don't really blame Wheeler for GL's death. By all rights GL should have been canceled after Conboy busted the budget. She kept the show going for 4-5 years. That whole period was a mad dash to cancel soaps and bring in shiny new saviors - four soaps gone, bam bam bam bam. (five if you count Passions) Moonves also had a clear contempt for soaps. I wish the show had survived but I don't think there was any way out. 

I just wish there was some sort of alternative out there now, so the show won't completely fade for people. I never really read it but I appreciated them having a followup show on Twitter for a few years after GL ended. 

I hope Beyond the Gates has a few mentions of Springfield, even if many viewers will think they are talking about The Simpsons.

Edited December 18, 20241 yr by DRW50

3 hours ago, Khan said:

Of course, I would have needed to de-age Andy slightly, so the relationship with Samantha wouldn't be too creepy (although, the age difference still would have been but one of many obstacles).  Sometimes, though, it's just like what Bill Bell told his son, Bradley: it all begins with putting two names together on a piece of paper.

Another idea I had was to introduce the now-grown Emily Mason (Norris) as an FBI agent and Gus Aitoro's ex-partner/ex-girlfriend.  I would've toyed a bit with a Gus/Harley/Emily triangle, but my plan was to cement her as the new Bauer family matriarch (via marriage to Rick) and Springfield police chief.  And yes, her mother, Janet, would have returned on a recurring basis, as a recovering alcoholic, like her mother, Ellen, before her.

I love this, @Khan! Wasn't Janet Ed's mistress at once? 

I always wanted to revitalize the Reardon crowd on GL by having Quint and Nola move back to Thornway Road with a set of quads (2 boys, 2 girls) to mix it up with the youngsters (Leah, Jude, Zach, Kevin, Clarissa, Jason, Robbie, and Hope). Each of the quads would have similar characteristics of Reardon. One would be brutish and bossy like Tony, one would be astute and tense like Jim (and Quint), one daughter would be gentle and understanding like Maureen, and (of course) the other daughter would be classic Nola--a daydreaming hellion that keeps Quint and Nola on their toes.

Stacey and J would both be successful cops at Springfield PD living at Thornway Road too. Stacey would be drawn to Alan Michael, yet constantly clashes with his amoral behavior.

J would be a thorn in Lizzie/Bill's marriage, as Bill would still get wrapped up in Dinah's shenanigans to take over Spaulding. J would contrast to Bill, being mysterious and gentle like his father. They'd eventually have an affair, which would've put Quint's camp versus Vanessa's camp. There would've been tons of classic exchanges between Vanessa and Nola. 

Tom would've come to join the Thornway Road crew and get involved with Marah. It would've tied into Lizzie/J's relationship as Tom would've known about the affair. Once it all blew up, Bill would've gone on a rampage wanting all things Reardon eradicated from Springfield as he sure as hell doesn't want his cousin Marah involved with a Reardon too. Michelle would've been wrapped up in it too as she is conflicted between her cousin (J) and oldest friend (Bill). But Michelle, who has fallen under the Bauer alcoholism curse, seeks solace from Bill while feeling neglected by Danny, the aspiring politician. 

7 hours ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

Part of the problem is the expansion to one hour. When the show was 15 and 30 minutes, a small family like the Bauers could be the main focus. Especially 15 minutes. In fact, the show was basically all about the Bauers from the late 40s to the 60s. With the time expansions, they had to add more characters as filler for time as the Bauers were too small a family at that time to be the focus. For some reason, the previous writers (Irna, Agnes) didn't expand the Bauers through births so it was kind of inevitable with the time expansions that they would lose their centerpiece status.

Expanding the soaps to an hour per episode ended up being a detriment to the genre. The "filler" permeating most shows was disappointing, and the tight cohesion that most soaps had offered slackened.

Previous writers really did lack foresight by not developing the Bauers more through birth. Killing off Chuckie, and even Kathy and Robin (related to Meta via marriage) didn't help.

In the 1980s, however, TGL still had the potential to feature Mike, Hope, Alan-Michael, Ed, Rick, Michelle, Maureen, Hillary and a potentially returned-and-reformed Bill Bauer. Trudy and her descendants could have popped up. Meta could have (and should have) returned when Bert died, rather than 10 years later.

Eleven or twelve Bauers on the canvas would have plenty, IMHO. Heck, even Mike, Hope, A-M, Ed (Mart Hulswit, please), Rick, Michelle, Maureen, Hillary and either Meta or Trudy would have more than satisfied me.

Instead, TPTB in the 1980s slaughtered the family, and no one who replaced them in subsequent years ever repaired the damage by reintroducing past Bauer favorites.

7 hours ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

Then, inexplicably, what few Bauers there were were written out and not brought back. Making the situation worse. I'm actually surprised the Bauers had a presence at all till the end. The Matthews of AW basically didn't exist toward the end. I think AW lasting as long as it did is actually a bigger miracle.

Although we were left with a faux Ed, an annoying/mugging Rick, and a poorly cast Michelle in the show's final years, I am pleased about the Bauers' lingering presence, even if it felt nominal by the end. And, actually, I agree with you about AW. It was shocking that it lasted as long as it did.

7 hours ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

(Marland) should have brought Bill Bauer back and he should have had Kelly be an illegitimate child of Ed's instead of his godson. It's kind of weird how differently Marland treated the Bauers and the Hughes. 

ITA. Kelly could have also worked as Trudy's grandson.

7 hours ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

But I actually think it's miraculous that TGL lasted as long as it did in its entirety. Not just the last 25 years. I don't think it was ever number one in the ratings. Even in its glory years. In fact, it was always sort of middle of the pack. Sometimes towards the bottom. And then it actually DID get cancelled twice and came back. It was just the show that kind of flew under the radar and resiliently outlasted them all. That is, until Ellen Wheeler finally killed it. 

TGL did well in the 1950s.

1951/52 ratings: 9.4 (4th place)

1952/3 ratings: 11.3 (4th place)

1953/54 ratings: 14.2 (2nd place)

1954/55: 14.6 (2nd place)

1955/56: 13.0 (2nd place)

1956/57: 11.4 (First place, woohoo!)

1957/58: 10.1 (First place again)

1958/59: 9.7 (3rd place; ATWT was #1)

1959/60: 9.6 (2nd place)

From 1960 to 1968, TGL held either the second or third-place position.

Then, in 1968-69, it tumbled down to the 9th place in the ratings with 8.9

In the 1970s, TGL was usually in the middle of the ratings pack until 1976/77, when it jumped back up to third place.

The show remained stable in the upper range of the charts until the mid-1980s...and the rest is history, alas.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_daytime_soap_opera_ratings

7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Mainly the returns, some of which were not what the actors deserved (like Holly), but I still appreciated that they were done, and some I found oddly touching, especially now (like Nola). And Vanessa and Billy getting back together. Even Frank and Blake, which was obviously just a filler and part of needing to pair everyone off at the end, I appreciated, as I loved their relationship when Sherry was in the role. There's certainly plenty I could pan, but I suppose I just appreciated that someone still seemed to care, which I was missing in ATWT's last year. And I didn't feel as repulsed by the show in ways I often did in the mid '90s or much of the '00s.

Okay, I understand your point. I was mollified and touched by some of the returns as well.

I could also quibble (and heaven knows, I do), but suggestions like Ed and Holly possibly rekindling something between them in the end was sweet.

7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I think expanding to an hour was a bad idea for most of the soaps. It's a punishing expansion. I notice no international soaps, even as they have made many of the same mistakes that killed the American soap genre, never made that mistake. 

I was around and watching during the heyday of the 15-minute soaps, and I was thrilled when they all expanded to 30-minutes. That was my favorite format. When soaps later expanded to an hour (and AW even tried that ridiculous 90 minute experiment), I had qualms about the quality deteriorating. Admittedly, at first some shows fared better than others at 60 minutes, but the pace was punishing, and it was hard not to expect the quality to suffer.

7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Only Josie was there for the Matthews, and she barely ever interacted with them. She was also in a very bad state (frankly she never had a good state...), similar to the Bauers in their last years.

I agree AW surviving so long was the bigger miracle.

I think I was more upset at TGL's cancellation than AW's, because I could still dream up ways of reinvigorating Springfield. To me, AW was dead beyond repair.

7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I don't really blame Wheeler for GL's death. By all rights GL should have been canceled after Conboy busted the budget. She kept the show going for 4-5 years. That whole period was a mad dash to cancel soaps and bring in shiny new saviors - four soaps gone, bam bam bam bam. (five if you count Passions) Moonves also had a clear contempt for soaps. I wish the show had survived but I don't think there was any way out.

I agree that Wheeler was not solely responsible for TGL's fate. It was a goner, we all saw the writing on the wall. It would have gotten axed even with brilliant minds writing and producing it. Heck, AMC met the Grim Reaper on ABC, even with Agnes Nixon and Lorraine Broderick at the writing helm.

Also, I will NEVER count Passions as a real soap, ROTF!🤢

7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I just wish there was some sort of alternative out there now, so the show won't completely fade for people. I never really read it but I appreciated them having a followup show on Twitter for a few years after GL ended. 

I hope Beyond the Gates has a few mentions of Springfield, even if many viewers will think they are talking about The Simpsons.

There was an online continuation of AW too, after it left the airwaves. I glanced at both that and the TGL bit on Twitter, but have never really gravitated towards fan fiction.

8 hours ago, TheyStartedOnSoaps said:

All this talk about Geri Betzler who played the infamous Lacey Bauer - I googled her to see what she did after Guiding Light

Apparently she died on Sept 2023 at age 57

Geralyn Betzler | Obituary | Minnesota Star Tribune

 

This is tragic; 57 is still so young.

May she RIP.

@vetsoapfan The ratings that disappoint me the most is the drop during the Calhoun era.

1988/89: 6.2 (7th). EP change from Joe Willmore to Robert Calhoun in June 1989.

1989/90: 5.4 (tied w/ Days for 7th). Kim Zimmer departure July 1990.

1990/91: 5.2 (tied w/ Days for 7th). HW change from Pamela Long to Nancy Curlee in January 1991. EP change from Robert Calhoun to JFP in July 1991.

The ratings then went up briefly but the momentum didn't last.

1991/92: 5.6 (5th). Beverlee McKinsey departure August 1992.

1992/93: 5.4 (7th). Maureen Bauer killed off January 1993. Buzz arrives March 1993.

1993/94: 5.4 (8th). Nancy Curlee leaves as HW in March 1994.

1994/95: 4.4 (8th). EP change from JFP to Michael Laibson in May 1995.

Edited December 19, 20241 yr by kalbir

1 hour ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

TGL did well in the 1950s.

1951/52 ratings: 9.4 (4th place)

1952/3 ratings: 11.3 (4th place)

1953/54 ratings: 14.2 (2nd place)

1954/55: 14.6 (2nd place)

1955/56: 13.0 (2nd place)

1956/57: 11.4 (First place, woohoo!)

1957/58: 10.1 (First place again)

1958/59: 9.7 (3rd place; ATWT was #1)

1959/60: 9.6 (2nd place)

From 1960 to 1968, TGL held either the second or third-place position.

Then, in 1968-69, it tumbled down to the 9th place in the ratings with 8.9

In the 1970s, TGL was usually in the middle of the ratings pack until 1976/77, when it jumped back up to third place.

The show remained stable in the upper range of the charts until the mid-1980s...and the rest is history, alas.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_daytime_soap_opera_ratings

Thank you for those ratings. I didn't realize the show had ever reached number one. I am probably more familiar with the radio ratings which were never very good and the ratings after I started watching in the 80s which, also, were never very good. It looks like the 50s and the 60s were the best for the show, ratings-wise. I wonder why the sharp drop in 68/69. I don't think the writing suffered too much during that time. Especially not compared to what came later. 

Edited December 19, 20241 yr by Reverend Ruthledge

@vetsoapfan You're right - I did like the glimpses of Holly/Ed (not so much her talking about Otalia, but I suppose we can take that as an homage to her scrapped lesbian storyline).

I remember the AW story a little, due to some controversy over fans voting over which characters should be killed off.

Every once in a while, I see a Twitter account that in the bio says they used to be part of a GL roleplaying experience and now they are mostly politics oriented. That always makes me feel sad because it reminds me that somehow even 2009, 2010, 2011 was a calmer world than what we have now, even if it didn't feel that way at the time.

Edited December 19, 20241 yr by DRW50

43 minutes ago, kalbir said:

@vetsoapfan The ratings that disappoint me the most is the drop during the Calhoun era.

Me too.

I was hoping against hope that the show's numbers would rebound once we had an experienced and erudite producer at the helm, along with sensitive, adult writing.

I believe that soap fans are a hardy bunch, who will stick with our favorite shows even through long periods of poor writing and management decisions. We keep wishing, demanding, and/or expecting things to improve.

Once we finally give up and accept that TIIC are not going anywhere, that our shows are probably never going to see a creative resurgence, we become disengaged and drift away from the programs we used to love. After we're gone, it's difficult to get us back.

Once burned, twice shy, as the old adage goes.

Folks point to General Hospital, under Gloria Monty and Douglas Marland/Pat Falken Smith, as evidence that even a soap which has languished in the toilet for years can have a miraculous recovery. But I feel that's the rare exception rather than the rule. Once TGL alienated and lost such a huge segment of its audience, I guess it was foolish of me to keep hope for its recovery alive...for 25 years, LOL.

27 minutes ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

Thank you for those ratings. I didn't realize the show had ever reached number one. I am probably more familiar with the radio ratings which were never very good and the ratings after I started watching in the 80s which, also, were never very good. It looks like the 50s and the 60s were the best for the show, ratings-wise. 

I do believe the 1950s and 1960s were the halcyon years for TGL.

For several years in the 1970s, the show hovered in the middle of the pack, but IMHO, most of the shows were ON FIRE and providing us with top-notch drama during that decade. With such formidable competition airing around the dial, even soaps which impressed me with their excellence struggled. I've always said 1976 was one of DAYS' very best years, but it could only manage to come in at 7th place that year.

34 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

@vetsoapfan You're right - I did like the glimpses of Holly/Ed (not so much her talking about Otalia, but I suppose we can take that as an homage to her scrapped lesbian storyline).

I remember the AW story a little, due to some controversy over fans voting over which characters should be killed off.

Every once in a while, I see a Twitter account that in the bio says they used to be part of a GL roleplaying experience and now they are mostly politics oriented. That always makes me feel sad because it reminds me that somehow even 2009, 2010, 2011 was a calmer world than what we have now, even if it didn't feel that way at the time.

I would not have been opposed to Holly pursuing a relationship with another woman, as long as it was handled maturely and honestly, and didn't get axed at the first sign of reactionary fan grumbling.

For a long time, aggressive "stans" of certain couples and plots have campaigned and fought very vocally to have romantic couplings and storylines align with their personal, preferred dictates. TPTB should never listen to them. Writers should be given reign to pursue their own creative visions for the shows. Organized, politicized fanbases are often...nuts.

 

32 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

I do believe the 1950s and 1960s were the halcyon years for TGL.

For several years in the 1970s, the show hovered in the middle of the pack, but IMHO, most of the shows were ON FIRE and providing us with top-notch drama during that decade. With such formidable competition airing around the dial, even soaps which impressed me with their excellence struggled. I've always said 1976 was one of DAYS' very best years, but it could only manage to come in at 7th place that year.

I would not have been opposed to Holly pursuing a relationship with another woman, as long as it was handled maturely and honestly, and didn't get axed at the first sign of reactionary fan grumbling.

For a long time, aggressive "stans" of certain couples and plots have campaigned and fought very vocally to have romantic couplings and storylines align with their personal, preferred dictates. TPTB should never listen to them. Writers should be given reign to pursue their own creative visions for the shows. Organized, politicized fanbases are often...nuts.

I'll always wonder how it felt going from what seems like the moribund early '70s period to when the Dobsons took over, although I assume the changes they made were gradual.

Aggressive and entitled fan bases being catered to were one of the death knells of soaps. (and so often for the dullest couples)

It's too bad so little of the Potter/Dobsons era has surfaced. I've accepted we'll probably never see 1976-1978.

Edited December 19, 20241 yr by kalbir

3 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I'll always wonder how it felt going from what seems like the moribund early '70s period to when the Dobsons took over, although I assume the changes they made were gradual.

Long-time producer Lucy Ferri Rittenberg helmed TGL  from 1952 to 1976, and I felt she understood the show, kept it consistent, and did a great job.

The capable team of Robert Soderberg and Edith Sommer wrote the show from 1969 to 1973, and they also did well, IMHO.

The only time I felt the show was moribund was under the sudden revolving-door of writers who worked on TGL during the two years between Soderberg/Sommer and the Dobsons.  Fortunately, none of them lasted very long (James Lipton was the worst, UGH), and once the Dobsons came aboard, the writing improved. (The problem now was the influx of so many newbies.)

3 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Aggressive and entitled fan bases being catered to were one of the death knells of soaps. (and so often for the dullest couples)

Cassie and Richard. Manny. Boooooooring.