But you don't have any good reason for believing that Jennifer Pepperman instigated a lawsuit.

If PP wasn't paying attention to what ABC was doing with those characters, that's their own damn fault. Then again, given the mistakes they'd made before then and the mistakes they've made since then, I have no trouble believing they didn't bother to follow up until the shows had already aired.

But you don't have any good reason for believing that Jennifer Pepperman instigated a lawsuit.

For God's sake Vee! This was just my view/speculation on the whole thing. It isn't like I am going to use this as a base for my Masters Thesis. My comment wasn't going to end the world or change it in any way. My comment was just part of the discussion. I wasn't even trying to imply this lawsuit is a bad idea or a good idea. I think PP has a good case on there hands.

If PP wasn't paying attention to what ABC was doing with those characters, that's their own damn fault. Then again, given the mistakes they'd made before then and the mistakes they've made since then, I have no trouble believing they didn't bother to follow up until the shows had already aired.

PP knew in, at least, September what was going on with the 3 characters when they decided to relaunch the shows (of course, I'm more than willing to believe they launched the shows the weekend after they thought about it with no real insight into what really needed to be done). They had ample time to ask GH/ABC to re-direct THE CHARACTERS so that they can be recast for OLTL. Instead, they chose to waste time and bargain [to share the "actors"] with the ABC dirty birdies. Too bad so sad!

Of course, I think PP knew long before September, but I'm willing to cut a little slack.

Can you stop insulting me??? Either say something nice or don't comment!

Disagreeing with you does not equal insulting you. Please calm down. No one stated or assumed that you were making a master's level thesis argument out of anything.

That said, yes, it's possible that Jen Pepperman complaint to TPTB at PP, but at the end of the day, she does not have the legal authority to sue anyone on PP's behalf. Did she complain? Maybe, but if she had enough pull with TPTB to push them into a lawsuit and public fight with ABC, then she should have had enough clout to keep them from shelving OLTL - and clearly she doesn't.

PP knew in, at least, September what was going on with the 3 characters when they decided to relaunch the shows (of course, I'm more than willing to believe they launched the shows the weekend after they thought about it with no real insight into what really needed to be done). They had ample time to ask GH/ABC to re-direct THE CHARACTERS so that they can be recast for OLTL. Instead, they chose to waste time and bargain [to share the "actors"] with the ABC dirty birdies. Too bad so sad!

Of course, I think PP knew long before September, but I'm willing to cut a little slack.

They didnt get the full funding Til December 2012

It seems odd--I thought the general consensus was PP's OLTL had some major issues but was pretty good--andnow suddenly everyone's acting like it was the worst the show ever had been.

I really didn't read anyone acting as if the OLTL reboot was the worst soap ever produced. The show earned a good deal of positive buzz at first. I just witnessed over time fewer and fewer were willing to overlook major flaws and then left off posting and watching. Apathy set in and that's the kiss of death for a soap. Personally, I'm sad I'm so apathetic over losing OLTL, and I see some others expressing that same sadness. That's all.

As for the general consensus? It's all perception really.

The growing disinterest in OLTL discussion threads here and on other boards was noted more than a few times the last couple of months. But, those voices who expressed frustrations or boredom were drowned out by a few who a) felt complaints were disloyal or b ) sincerely believed the show was improving.

When I read the SOD spread praising the writing for Todd with Blair, I found it matched a few posts I read here. But I was struck by how SOD obsessed over one small slice and largely ignored the bigger story disappointed many general fans. The most posts generated across the OLTL boards by far, was the criminal waste the writers made of Victor's reveal, Todd vs Victor, and the disjointed tattoo mystery. That story was really OLTL's A story and PP blew that potential big time. So you have the soap mag selectively praising one small thread while ignoring its A story failed, and that mirrored what happened here. In contrast, I don't even watch AMC but kept hearing positive buzz over their sex trade A story.

Also, OLTL received more early praise for its younger cast than AMC. But PP misused RG who was frank his character was a hot mess he couldn't quite figure out. PP stuck him on a cliche fatal attraction story with a newbie no one cared about. Michelle could turn out to be Allison's daughter down the line, I don't care. PP wasted the organic drama of Destiny/Matt/Dani with the added Jeffrey complication. CB was excellent as newcomer Jeffrey, but by the time of his tattoo reveal and villainous mentor entered the picture, it was too little and too late for many. In contrast again, I heard AMC's sex trade was well-paced and well-written. KM's talents were wasted the last half month with that creepy Arturo plot. PP failed to follow through on her drug addiction and Dani & Todd's conflicts. PP should have kept AT focused on Jack vs Todd instead of trying to drive a separate story that he simply was not up to.

As for Dorian. her initial story battling Viki over the black ops story held soapy good potential. I expected vengeful fireworks and instead PP wrote that insipid Pellegrino scam. Worse, PP followed in RC's footsteps by assuming fans care more about David than Dorian. Dorian and Dorian vs Viki faded into the background while David's stupid reality series took center stage.

I won't even get into how PP wasted HBS, MA and FL's talents. JVD alone was given meaty material and from what I saw he inspired the only positive general consensus across the boards the last weeks.

Edited September 4, 201312 yr by TeamEric

LOVING is an ABC owned Soap. Agnes never owned it. Just created, Wrote it for ABC. She sold OLTL & AMC to ABC in 1973 0r 75.

Since PP didnt lease LOVING, ABC can use it freely as it wishes

Wrong. ABC never bought it or The City. Check out the credits (though she has mentioned this, in I think that long youtube interview) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49koaI_hu5g

For AMC and OLTL she used her company Creative Horizons. She felt that after five years they were secure enough that selling to ABC would make sense since they promised a much larger budget and to keep her on as a writer and/or consultant (and that did work well--for a good while anyway.) Notice how this AMC episode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49koaI_hu5g from 1970 has its final copyright as Creative Horizons--the episodes online from '78 on list ABC as the copyright owner

She wanted to do the same for Loving so created Dramatic Creations, as Creative Horizons was closed after the sale--again creating it with her husband. Probably either both because Agnes Nixon never felt that Loving was in a comfortable place creative and ratings wise, and because ABC was not super interested in the soap she NEVER sold it. Here is the closing credits showing Dramatic Creations for Loving in its second year http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6I5qjwKSrE and here you see the same in The City's credits http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49koaI_hu5g Rumour was that besides low numbers and apparently the expense of its great groundbreaking filming technique, ABC gave up on The City so soon because they would own outright PC.

If ABC had owned Loving perhaps we would have been so lucky to get it on SoapNet back when they briefly aired classic soaps--they did own Ryan's Hope and while they didn't know AW of course that was a better known soap.

So in theory, Agnes could retaliate I suppose with GH using even photos of characters from her Loving--but she's classy (And, like much of this lawsuit it woul dbe silly) plus Loving/The City has no viable future anyway.

(Sorry for the long rant but I had to prove John wrong

Edited September 4, 201312 yr by EricMontreal22

I really didn't read anyone acting as if the OLTL reboot was the worst soap ever produced. The show earned a good deal of positive buzz at first. I just witnessed over time fewer and fewer were willing to overlook major flaws and then left off posting and watching. Apathy set in and that's the kiss of death for a soap. Personally, I'm sad I'm so apathetic over losing OLTL, and I see some others expressing that same sadness. That's all.

I didn't mean on this forum--I should have been clear, but certainly elsewhere many have done a 180 including some of the "soap press"--and I certainly didn't mean you. You've been pretty clear (which is more than fair) on your feelings since the start.

Wrong. ABC never bought it or The City. Check out the credits (though she has mentioned this, in I think that long youtube interview) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49koaI_hu5g

For AMC and OLTL she used her company Creative Horizons. She felt that after five years they were secure enough that selling to ABC would make sense since they promised a much larger budget and to keep her on as a writer and/or consultant (and that did work well--for a good while anyway.) Notice how this AMC episode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49koaI_hu5g from 1970 has its final copyright as Creative Horizons--the episodes online from '78 on list ABC as the copyright owner

She wanted to do the same for Loving so created Dramatic Creations, as Creative Horizons was closed after the sale--again creating it with her husband. Probably either both because Agnes Nixon never felt that Loving was in a comfortable place creative and ratings wise, and because ABC was not super interested in the soap she NEVER sold it. Here is the closing credits showing Dramatic Creations for Loving in its second year http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6I5qjwKSrE and here you see the same in The City's credits http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49koaI_hu5g Rumour was that besides low numbers and apparently the expense of its great groundbreaking filming technique, ABC gave up on The City so soon because they would own outright PC.

If ABC had owned Loving perhaps we would have been so lucky to get it on SoapNet back when they briefly aired classic soaps--they did own Ryan's Hope and while they didn't know AW of course that was a better known soap.

So in theory, Agnes could retaliate I suppose with GH using even photos of characters from her Loving--but she's classy (And, like much of this lawsuit it woul dbe silly) plus Loving/The City has no viable future anyway.

(Sorry for the long rant but I had to prove John wrong

I bow to U ericthat is right and is also how PP can use Cassandra since she was originally a City character

OLTL started off very strongly, but mid-way through the season.. it seemed to run out of steam. I'm not sure if it's cause SBH left the writing team mid-way through, if the episode cut from 4x/wk to 2x/wk affected things.. who is to say. I'm also wondering which stories were SBH's idea and which were TR ideas? The Tattoo story seems TR idea, but it seems like the Dorian/Vicki feud/ Pellegrino fund scheme seemed to end suddenly with no real payoff (other then Clint/Vicki breaking up).

AMC, on the other hand, kind of struggled at the start. Major character/stars didn't return (i.e. Erica, Tad, kendall, Greenlee/Ryan to a lesser extent), plus the head-writing team had never written the show.. which is most likely why the vet characters were used as props for the young characters at first. However, as time moved forward.. it seemed like there were plots with decent pacing.. and it appeared that as the head-writers were getting an idea of the history/connections.. so did things improve (i.e. Colby/Cassandra scenes, Dixie/Cara finally interacting..Angie/Jesse finally starting to act like themselves again, and Brooke/Dixie having underlying tension that existed between them due to the past.). The human trafficking story did kind of drag a bit at the start.. but 1/3 of the way.. the pacing picked up. and so many story beats were hit (Jesse making deal with the devil, Cassandra being rescued then having an abortion, Jesse being found out by FBI agent Lea then giving up his position as Chief of Police.. so we are left with the next threads of the story. which is Cassandra trying to get back to normal living again, Jesse and possibly Tad going rogue to find the head of the human trafficking story.. Jesse possibly lying to Angie while David is close by to take advantage..and Zach/Lea are inching toward being a couple).

I think if OLTL does resume production, they need to not put so many eggs into one basket.. and perhaps look back into their past to generate story... AMC did that with Dimitri and Billy Clyde Tuggle.

Wow. It's sad to say.. but the decline of the PP soaps continue. This makes me really sad and my heart goes out to you OLTL fans. I am going to sound like a real Debbie downer here.. but I honestly believe soaps (as we know and love them.. aka: daily serialized drama) is coming to an end. I've believed this for a long time. yes... "soap opera" shows will always be around because shows with a "soapy" element will always be appealing (ex: Greys Anatomy, Revenge, Scandal, etc) but our DAILY daytime drama/soap operas we know them truly is a dying genre. Once the PP soaps went to 2xweek I automatically put them in a different category.. twice a week shows that have "seasons" with on/off seasons.. to me, that's not a soap opera.. its a telenovela. not the same thing. I'm not opposed to our shows surviving that way, if that's the "way of the future" for them to make it.. just saying its not the same as the remaining broadcast soaps producing five shows/week. I honestly think its best and most respectful for the soaps to die(if they are dying) a dignified death on their respective networks.. I mean lets look at history here.. AW, GL, ATWT.. I know people have differing opinions on their finales... but regardless, they were allowed to die dignified (somewhat) deaths on their network with a proper finale. Look at the other option.... Passions goes to DirecTV and gets episode orders reduced and putters out nearly a year later. Granted, they did have a proper finale as well.. but wouldn't it have been better for them to have had it on NBC the year earlier? Now we have OLTL who has one "season" on PP and is again ending without a real finale I believe.. what if it could have just had a proper finale on ABC? And then AMC.. maybe it's coming back/maybe not? will it be successful long term? Probably not.. Again, with all those cast returns at the end... it could have had an amazing proper series finale on ABC. I of course don't want our soaps to die.. but if they are dying.. I want them to die respectfully and with dignity. I respect them for trying to find any and all other options and venues to survive (via DirecTv, Cable, Internet, etc) but I think seeing them putter out like this is painful and in a way degrades their memory. It would be much more dignified for them to just have a proper finale on their network with an amazing beautiful sendoff. End of rant

This is very nearly the type of thing I would've posted a year ago. Well, technically, it would've had more paragraph breaks, parentheticals and metaphors but the sentiment mirrors where my head was after PP washed out the first time around.

I don't feel that way anymore.

I think that no matter how many mistakes PP has made - and they've made plenty - they showed that there is still a vibrant, engaged, viable audience for soaps. There's still a lot to figure out about content and logistics but the audience is there. And just like Broadway was declared dead before RENT and the sitcom was dead before The Cosby Show in the 80s and Friends in the 90s, and YA fiction was dead before Harry Potter and Twilight it's just a matter of time before there is a perfect combination of talent, funding, luck and timing to kick soaps into their next phase. I'd give anything for it to be this new version of AMC but that's just me being a Pine Valley/Agnes Nixon fangurl and I know it.

It's ironic that I used to pride myself on being one of SON's biggest cynics. I guess that I need to officially pass that crown on to ChitHappens. The Queen is dead. Long live the Queen.

Cynicism is boring.

And I told you so.

I liked Seinfeld more than Friends.

Cynicism is boring.

And I told you so.

It might be boring but in the case of soaps it was well-deserved. PP gave me more reason to be a soap fan in three months than the networks did in the last decade.

Edited September 4, 201312 yr by marceline