As The World Turns Discussion Thread

[Mitch64]

Love this era of ATWT...we hadn't gone into the super morose, overly polite era of Marland (where EVERYONE who had a bad day needed to go to their therapist.) I love how Marland covered history, to catch everyone up, in a fight (I gotta love that only on soaps to people go to other peoples houses  just to trade insults..) I also love that Kim is doing a normal thing like cooking while this is going on.

I just wish they had made Sabrina something other than the boring drip she was...a real boozy slut would have been fun.  "I was just over at Mum's house, and this Susan woman came by..boy she seems like a real tw*t!"

[vetsoapfan]

@DRW50, thanks for alerting me to this classic episode. I loved seeing it again.

I always took glee in watching Kim slice and dice antagonists with her tongue, while remaining classy and superior to them. 

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Douglas Marland and Robert Calhoun were the perfect team.

If I had the opportunity to rewatch full archives of classic soaps, I'd select the years which I considered to be their best (DAYS from 1965 to early 1977, Y&R from 1973 to 1982, AW from 1964 to 1975). With ATWT, it would be a long stretch of episodes, from 1956 to 1981--I'd skip the dark Mary-Ellis Bunim period--and then 1984 to 1993.)

I think ATWT and TGL had the longest stretches of quality, overall.

Edited July 16, 2024 by vetsoapfan

[DRW50]

The image of Kim firing back at Susan while in domestic bliss is such a great contrast, especially to Susan, whom we are reminded has no real home or life, crashing into the Hughes house for a fight.

I've always thought your idea for Sabrina as not putting up with the expectations of Oakdale would have been fun. I can imagine her saying "oh piss off" to Barbara. 

Tonio is one of the worst husbands in the history of soap, so I appreciated getting to see her snap at him. Finn Carter always did well with those grittier moments of Sierra. 

One of the reasons I had no real use for the fights Kim and Susan had in the Sheffer era is because they lost any awareness of what made Kim so strong as a character. She could spar with people, but she kept her dignity. She never let them see her struggle, and if we did, then we knew it was a moment where we should be concerned for her. 

As has already been mentioned, the show had so many underrated rivalries for a long time. I think because many of the actresses in the cast were able to demonstrate vulnerability alongside fire.

I wish more of that 56-81 period could pop up (I suppose we will get a bit more with Ariana Muenker's clips, and hopefully something earlier will show up again while we're still on this planet...).

Edited July 16, 2024 by DRW50

[OzFrog]

Been making my way through the 1989 and 1990 episodes - currently watching Casey’s death and the aftermath thereof. All I can say is, DAMN, ATWT was on fire during this period!

I have to also say I actually liked the Brock Lombard storyline - Emily never seemed to catch a break during this time and I greatly admire Melanie Smith’s portrayal.

Also getting used to Heather Rattray’s Lily and can’t help but imagine what it would be like with Martha Byrne still in the role. Now waiting for Holden’s return to see if there is chemistry between Rattray and John Hensley…

[DramatistDreamer]

Oh I absolutely agree with you @DRW50about it being justified that Sierra would snap at Tonio. I don’t know if you remember but Tonio at one time had been physically abusive as well as emotionally and mentally abusive towards Sierra. In at least one scene, fairly early on in their marriage, Lyla in observant nurse mode, noticed that Sierra had bruises on her arm and the horrified expression on Lyla’s face said it all. I believe the same thing happened to Meg. There was that very intense scene when Sierra announces that she plans to divorce him and Tonio forcefully grabbing Sierra and telling her that she will never leave him or he would kill Craig. There was also a forceful struggle between Tonio and Meg where Emily walks in and starts bellowing at Tonio to stop. It was an intense scene, especially since by then, Meg knows about the affair that her husband had been having with Emily. The mistress having to intervene on the wife’s behalf. Do today’s soaps do that type of twisted drama?

It was also something of a shocking contrast when Kim lost her cool or had an outbreak because it happened so rarely and it happened in times of genuine duress. 
 

Another “goodie” was in the midst of all this high drama with people at each other’s throats, there’s Lucinda in the catbird seat, smiling serenely at John, knowing what she is about to do and that he would likely owe her big time lol. There had always been some inexplicable force between John and Lucinda (usually combative) but when Lucinda smiled at John in that hospital boardroom, you just knew something had changed.

Edited July 16, 2024 by DramatistDreamer

[DRW50]

Another benefit of seeing a little more of this period is seeing that shift with John and Lucinda as I mostly remember the fighting and tension before their marriage. 

You're absolutely right about how chilling the portrayal of Tonio's control and abuse was (and how much they used the inherent lack of self-worth in Meg and Emily to drive their part of the story). I had my issues with later aspects of the Tonio story, but everything with his ugly marriages to Sierra and Meg made sense and was well mapped-out. 

(the Meg/Josh aspect probably shouldn't have but the actors sold it for me)

[vetsoapfan]

Sheffer really did a number on the show.

He could not write multi-dimensional characters.

He could not do subtlety.

He did not understand many of the veteran characters and kept them sidelined.

He was not adept at poignancy or warmth.

His ATWT was awash in ham-fisted, low-brow camp with a mean-spirited twist. It was the polar opposite of everything the real ATWT had been built upon  and was once popular for.

I loved the long-running antagonism Ellen Stewart showed for both Lisa and Susan.

Having Kim and Susan (of all people) hug each other in the final episode was just stupid.

The 1960s' ATWT was a masterpiece.

[DRW50]

You said it! It can never be said enough.

ATWT, at its best, used history in a way that made viewers feel like they were a part of Oakdale. In the long run this probably hurt the show more, because it was harder to just say, "Oh it's a soap," when important character traits were dropped, but it also caused brand loyalty that kept the show about 15+ more years on the air than it would have otherwise.

[vetsoapfan]

And I've heard it said many times before, from many different folks.

The fact that Sheffer won Emmy awards for his writing ATWT confirms the inanity of the Daytime Emmy system, IMHO. (Many of the nominees and winners have been baffling for a long time, if you ask me.)

I know that I and other die-hard fans remained with ATWT and TGL looooooong after they deserved it, based solely upon long-time brand loyalty.

A friend of mine, who also started watching soaps when were young and in school, used to complain about Ellen Stewart all the time. He said she was dowdy and sullen and just generally annoying. But when Patricia Bruder was fired, he was LIVID. "They can't just write out Ellen like that! She's been there forever; she's PART OF THE SHOW! I can b*tch about her all I want, but how DARE they get rid of her? She's OURS!"

He was joking...but only sort of. All fans are protective of our soaps, and that loyalty has helped several shows endure longer than they would have survived without it.

[DRW50]

That's it exactly. I was spoiled watching ATWT growing up as there was a sense of history and a realism in everyday - not just bringing back old characters for visits, but also letting us see many characters react to news. That's why all the changes forced on the show in 1995 stung me so much, and I don't know if I ever really forgave them for it. 

[vetsoapfan]

I guarantee that I never stopped resenting TIIC who systematically butchered all our shows.

[Liberty City]

Amazing. TYSM! 

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[DramatistDreamer]

It’s something to ponder what you’re posting @vetsoapfan @DRW50about the writing that used to really keep us captivated and the difference between that and the latter years when the quality of storytelling took a nosedive. Sheffer’s writing seems to have left a legacy in some of today’s soaps and the storylines. Y&R (at least the last time I watched an episode) seems to have a closer affinity to his writing than to that of Bill Bell Sr. 
Not to bring in politics or anything but in other threads we often talk about the complicity of media in promoting scenarios and figures that are harmful to a healthy functioning democracy because it seems good for business and sometimes I wonder about certain aspects of (what once was) the soap media— did they promote certain toxic aspects (e.g. rapemances, etc.) because it was good for business? And were they also complicit in the deterioration of the genre?

[adrnyc]

 

This is one of those posts that just amazes me because, like any type of art, whether it be music, paintings, statues, television, movies...two people can watch something and have completely different viewpoints.

I agree with you that Sheffer did a number on the show - a number one! He took a dying, poorly written mess that Leah Laiman had done to the show, especially summer of '00, and in one week, turned the ship around to something much more enjoyable to watch.

Could he write multi-dimensional characters? Maybe not. However, a soap opera is melodrama and, having a masters degree in acting from one of the top schools in NYC, I know that melodrama was how America took theater and made it its own. In melodrama, good characters are good, and bad characters are bad.  He wrote for what the genre is. Personally, that gave me characters I really wanted to root for and characters I really despised.

He could not do subtlety? Now that I'm about to rewatch his tenure, I'll have to be on the lookout for that. In my memory, there was absolutely subtlety, but I'm always watching from an actor's viewpoint and it may be just I remember the actors giving the writing subtlety. (And yes, I know, this board likes to bring up Barbara jumping out of the window every chance it gets. It does not help my point at all; however, it was one moment in 4 years.)

Not understanding the veteran characters? John continued to be a d!ck. Lisa still butted her nose into everyone's business. Kim and Bob were the "stable couple" at that point - something every soap opera needs. Yet he kept them busily involved in their children's lives. Something I think we can all agree that, once in your 60s on ANY sort of television show, that's your role. Lucinda had fantastic storylines. Traveling to Malta to save Holden and Luke. Showdowns with both her daughters - many showdowns. 

Not adept at poignancy? Bryant's death and how it affected everyone. Katie and Simon's wedding and subsequent relationship. Jack and Carly's 3 year arc during his time. Jake and Molly's wedding. Jake giving up the twins to Donna and Marley. Rose and Paul's love affair (before being recast by that guy from ABC.) 

Warmth? Nancy was full of it as well as a mischievous twinkle in her eye when she appeared. Holden and Lily's relationship. Aaron and Lucy's. Carly and Jack's. Bob and Kim's. The Lily/Carly/Emily friendship that bonded them from James kidnapping them. 

It just goes to show...art is incredibly subjective. As I said above, two people can view the same piece of art and have completely different feelings about it. That's what makes art (and love) grand!

[DRW50]

I do think they moved into encouraging uglier behavior because of the atmosphere created by Luke and Laura, although the biggest changes happened after the nihilism, misogyny and glorification of abuse under writers like Bob Guza became so prominent. You can see the hints like the fumbling attempts to make viewers care about Reid/David, whose washboard abs got more focus than the scripts. And then when Sheffer comes in this tilt to callousness becomes the norm. 

P&G was too morally pure in earlier years, but still, I'd take the executives that put their foot down on Edith Hughes and Jim Lowell being able to marry over the executives that went along with the hilarity of Craig mocking a rape victim or Craig having sex with the young woman he'd raised as a daughter.