Y&R: Discussion for the Month of November

[alphanguy74]

On one hand, Paul has been written as a hero (By Bell and Alden at least) but on the other, he's been a flawed hero as a father. I don't know if they are trying to revisit his shortcomings when he was young, or what is going on here. The problem is that we havne't been given or shows any REAL motivation for him not being a larger part in Ricky's life. And considering what a harpie and a nag Mary was, I woudln't think SHE would let him forget Ricky, either. But like I said... he DOES have a history of letting parental responsibility slide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK_WhI033iw

[DeeeDee]

He has been in Ricky's life (it's not like he abandoned his son).

He felt it better (for everyone) that Ricky live with Isabella's parents because (Isabella's actions aside) they were good parents.

The fact that Cricket had forgiven him (who was who he really wanted to be with) by that point also helped his decision.

Not really though.

He did what he felt was best for Heather at the time (especially since he wasn't ready to be a father & husband).

And he was very good with her (and April) when they stayed in GC to get away from Robert.

[Cat]

Paul was doing the best he could for Ricky's well-being. He was a broken man in many respects. Writing the child off screen was also the writers' way of sidelining Paul and Cricket -- I mean, this was the last leading story that Doug Davidson and Lauralee Bell had. LLB pretty much left thereafter and DD was reduced to occasional PI work on the show.

That Isabella/Paul/Christine/Michael SL was a lot better than I thought at the time. I absolutely loved Michael Baldwin and Christian LeBlanc at that time. They really dealt with his demons, his past with Christine, his inability to get over his obsession with her... I thought it was fascinating. Isabella was the weak link which is a shame because Eva Longoria was doing a lot of stand-up comedy around LA at the time and, as DH shows, they could have done SO MUCH with the character. The problem was that the story was intended to showcase Paul & Christine as "good" and everybody else as "bad" and that is what made the story lacking. And then we had the out-of-the-blue rape of Christine by Paul, and that essentially made sure that DD would be on recurring once the SL wrapped. People were really shocked by it. I know I was because it seemed so out-of-character. How ironic that, looking back on the story, on David Shaughnessy's production values, at the way Y&R expertly rotated and used its cast (unlike now), man, I really wish Y&R was at "that place" again, SL quibbles and all.

Looking at the old clips of April and Paul, it is crazy how much Vail Bloom looked like she could be their child! And absolutely ridiculous the way she was turfed off the show and her reputation as an actress besmirched in order to prop up the signing of Eden Reigel. I wouldn't mind if Vail Bloom came back... if the current HW regime was a better one of course.

[Juliajms]

Poor baby, he didn't get the baby momma he wanted so he gets to dump his kid on others? I don't think so. Paul doesn't get a pass from me just because Isabella was a nut case. You have them, you raise them and if you choose not to, you can STFU about their behavior. Visiting now and then does not make someone a parent. You didn't bother to instill your morals in the kid, then don't cry when they don't see the world the way you want them to.

[DeeeDee]

It's doesn't make him the greatest Dad but it's not like he abandoned his son totally either.

He left him with two responsible people (who happened to be related to Ricky) & continued to visit him (in a reduced capacity) over the subsequent years.

Which is pretty much exactly what Victor did with Adam.

What pass?

Again just because he chose not to be Ricky's primary parent doesn't mean he abandoned or didn't love his son.

If Ricky had done something as simple as stay out late then sure.

But he destroyed his sister's career over something he thought she got that he didn't without even getting to know her.

That's not about his & Paul's issues.

That's about him doing something horrible to someone who wanted to get know & love him.

Unlike Adam (who had a fair amount of reason to resent his siblings) Heather didn't do anything to deserve that kind of treatment.

Not every family is an idealistic nuclear family nor does growing up in a nuclear family automatically mean one will be a good person.

The Newmans are proof of that.

Again it's about the who, what & why in which Ricky chose to express his anger that's the problem.

Instead of sitting down with Paul (as Adam did with Victor) & discussing his issues he chose to act on an unwise assumption, managed to totally hurt someone who cared for him & now rightly feels terrible about it.

For all his issues with his siblings Adam didn't immediately go after them because he had issues with Victor.

[DeeeDee]

But she wasn't.

She was treated very sympathetically by the writers, had fun chemistry with CLB/Carolyn Conwell & was helped by being paired against Cricket (who a lot of the audience hated).

It wasn't until she began to scheme (on her own) that some of the audience began to dislike the character (for the things the character did not because of the character itself).

The reason viewers loved her on Desperate Housewives was because she didn't really get much comedy on Y&R so they were surprised she was such a natural at it.

Not true.

In fact Paul & Cricket were great to watch (because despite the faux rape & the underwhelming climax) THEY were treated as the bad guys.

Michael (always popular at the time) became increasingly sympathetic as Paul became more unglued & Isabella (prior she began scheming & being homicidal) was also treated in an increasingly sympathetic manner to Cricket's self absorption.

The "rape" was MANY things but it definitely wasn't out of the blue.

That was really LLB's doing more than anything.

Her extended maternity leaves pretty much left Paul in storyline hell (both times).

Paul has had several love interests since then so it hasn't hurt him (beyond the initial few months).

Viewers were indeed shocked by it but not because it came out of the blue (but because Y&R actually went there).

If anything they (as well as LLB & DD) were upset at the lack of resolution about the incident more than anything.

[DRW50]

If we're supposed to cheer Victor's abusive parenting, and believe that anything bad which happened to Adam was because of Cliff (who died when Adam was less than a year old), I'm not sure why we should be angry with Paul.

[Juliajms]

But who says we are supposed to believe that? Even Victor has blamed himself at times for giving Adam up. If you abandon your child, you shouldn't be shocked when they don't behave according to your moral standards.

I love how Sharon is accused of abandoning her children when she left him with their father for a few months, but Paul doesn't seem to think he abandoned Ricky. Please. Ricky didn't even know that Paul didn't raise Heather, so it's hard for me to believe Paul went to see him more than a few times when he was growing up. They obviously weren't close or he'd know his father wasn't raising another child.

I like Paul, but no one will convince me that he has a right to act like Ricky's disappointed father at this point. After all, Heather did make out with Adam. She's the one who got herself into this mess. I think the defense did have a right to know about her misconduct.

[DRW50]

Victor only regretted that he left Adam with a bad father. He didn't blame himself. The show chose to blame Cliff for any of Adam's failings.

Sharon went on about how she was having a miracle baby, her replacement Cassie, yet she then had zero reaction to this baby's presumed death, and then, after getting the baby back, dumped the child off in order to obsess over Adam. I don't think she believes she abandoned her kids, and half the time over the last few years I wasn't sure if she remembered she had then.

[DeeeDee]

Which is what happens when retcons become a overly used crutch.

[DeeeDee]

But if you're involved in the child's life you haven't abandoned them.

There are levels to parenting & it's unfair to say that because a parent makes a choice they think is a good one for their child that makes them a bad parent.

Some of us haven't (and never have) judged Sharon for her absence so that's another unfair comparison.

It's mainly Giggly stans that use that to "win" in their war against everything Sharon.

If Ricky was so upset at feeling like Paul treated Heather better than him then that's an issue that he should have confronted Paul about.

Nobody is saying that Ricky doesn't have the right to have issues or that Paul is a perfect parent but that he (Ricky) handled everything all wrong.

And if Ricky had any urge to get to know Heather at all prior to hurting her he would have come to understand (like he did at the club) that her & Paul's relationship wasn't perfect either.

That's an unfair assumption.

Because that's assuming Ricky wanted to know about Heather which his actions prove he didn't.

And again when Adam wanted to know about HIS parents relationship he ASKED his father (who had no problem explaining things to him).

Ricky had (and still has) that choice but he chose to hurt someone rather than fix himself

Why not?

Paul IS his father & Paul IS Heather's father.

This isn't a Victor/Adam situation where Victor blatantly used Adam as a weapon to hurt Nicholas.

This is a parent who sees one of his children hurting the other for little reason.

Blaming Paul for everything absolves Ricky (an adult) of the consequences of HIS choices & it's only right that if Paul has to shoulder blame for his actions that Ricky do the same.

Heather acted very irresponsibly.

So she DOES deserve a lot of what ensued but it wasn't Ricky's place (especially given the motivation behind his actions) to make her pay.

[alphanguy74]

No, youv'e just neglected them.

[Cat]

I hear what you are saying and please understand that I am just expressing the Isabella/Paul/Christine/Michael story through my eyes and my own biases. I found it hard to warm to Isabella for a long time, but I agree that EL and CLB clicked amazingly well and that was when the "square" came into its own for me.

In hindsight, I can see your point about Paul and Cricket coming off as the "bad" ones; at the time, my negative feelings regarding the over-exposed Cricket came into play and I was just exasperated at watching a situation where all these men were enamoured of the fragrant Christine and seemingly blind to the stunning Latina (I may not have warmed to the character at first but Eva's beauty was evident).

The rape was a surprise to me... but in the context of story building, yes, I can see your point. It was shocking, not that this is a bad thing at all, we SHOULD be shocked by this SL twist I think, and I am 100% in agreement about the writers' failure to follow through and deal with that rape. In fact, if LLB came back (which I would hope she would, surprisingly!) and somebody with half a brain decided to mix her up with Nina (NOT Ronan), Paul, Michael, Lauren, heck, Nick, too, and Phyllis (that hit-and-run needs to be brought up!), all the beats of this still-very-viable dynamic between this group of people would be a must-watch for me.

What is cheering about talking about this particular SL from the past is how well-planned out (for the most part) it was, how it could and would still impact on the canvas today in almost an umbrella SL! Despite the flaws and problems I had at the time with the SL, I look back on it now and recognize its quality in terms of planning, pace and execution. LLB was a weak actress IMO with her unblinking stare and flat delivery, but she rose to the challenge in that SL and really worked hard at the material, even when it didn't showcase Cricket in an ultra-positive way.

[DeeeDee]

No one denied that.

It's ok that you didn't personally warm to her but what's your basis for asserting Eva was the "weak link"?

That's the thing.

It was necessarily "rape" which makes the lack of resolution (especially from Cricket) even more annoying.

Unfortunately Y&R has no use for its vets or history.

They're there just to serve to support stories for the stunt cast.

LLB's problem (aside from her lackluster acting) is Y&R will NEVER compromise Cricket which is what that story essentially did. But instead of actually exploring Cricket in depth (like the other 3) it was all surface & that REALLY hurt the story. When the writing has characters making dubious choices the show can't afford to put actors over story which is what happened with LLB. Plus her extended maternity leaves didn't help either which left an unfortunate distance between her character & the rest of the story.

[AllMyDaysatGH]

Y&R was really good these last three episodes. I loved how the Adam/Heather picture drama was handled.

Adam is a really tiresome character to watch. The way he sprints around town & goes everywhere, it's like he has wings and is in almost every scene. Total overkill. Not a fan of him at all.

God, how I hate Phyllis. LOL at this bitch getting served with court papers, getting in a big argument with Nick in front of everyone, then leaving in a huff like she was going to do something. And what did she do?? Run over to Ronan's office to take all her clothes off and pork. LOL! What a vapid ho.

Also can't stand how every other Phyllis scene is of her at that damn computer, soaking in all the "hits". Ugh!

Meanwhile, I can't get enough of Avery. I love her! She is near perfect. I love her spitfire, bitchy attitude. Her & Nick are hot to.

Glad Sharon is out of prison and wants to go out of town with Faith to spend some time with her but really? She goes to Sam's house? I thought she wanted to spend time ALONE with Faith? But instead she's taking her to another man's house (who im assuming she's never met) I will admit I haven't seen much of Sam so maybe this isn't so strange to most but I'm pretty annoyed that Sharon chose this place of all the other places she could go. It seems to me she wants to be with Sam and not so much with Faith.

I'll miss Heather after this story. I would've liked to see her fight through this and stay. Her and Chance were really sweet in those last scenes.

Did Debbi just sign on for a 5 episode stint or something?! Where the hell is she? She disappeared, it's been like 2 weeks now. *sigh*