As The World Turns Discussion Thread

[DRW50]

@Contessa Donatella 

(from the AW thread)

I know there's been some...speculation here about whatever went down with Martha and Goutman. Others may know better than I do.

[wonderwoman1951]

i had always assumed it was a straight-up money issue between martha and goutman. but on one of the early locher room reunions she said something — don’t remember exactly what — that may me go ‘hmm.’

didn’t say anything at the time, but shortly thereafter, a friend mentioned that she had heard martha on another podcast and wondered if something had happened between her and gountman.

that got me to wondering about goutman’s unholy obsession with katie as the show’s ‘little sweetheart’ (his words).

so…

 

[DramatistDreamer]

Oh, you should have been here in this thread at the time, we were all talking about this back then!

[adrnyc]

You should watch Goutman's interview on The Locher Room for his point of view. I was surprised. He came across as knowing he handled the situation badly and felt remorse for it. He mentioned that there was someone on staff who had been let go a year earlier and that, if that had never happened, the situation between himself and Martha probably wouldn't have gotten out of control.

And I still will never understand this board's dislike of Katie. She's a legacy character for goodness sake. We saw her born. We saw Margo euthanize Katie's father. There's a lot of history there.

Speaking of history - am in March '00 and so much history has been coming up lately. Bryant's return has had Lucinda explaining to Jake all about Craig and Sierra and Montega. Kim disabused Denise of the idea that she and Bob and John are saints by bringing up the fact that John blackmailed Kim into marriage, after Kim was sleeping with Bob while he was married to her sister, Jennifer. 

I know we're not in the Sheffer period yet but, so far, lots of history is being used. 

[Vee]

I just know I came to the same queasy conclusions many others did based on how Martha's been talking about it for several years.

[wonderwoman1951]

exactly! all that history that was never explored. cannot recall katie and margo ever discussing casey’s death. and i don’t think katie and craig — her brother! — ever had a scene together. 

[DramatistDreamer]

Because the show couldn’t be bothered to write any stories that paid actual attention to the show’s history. They threw almost every aspect in the bin.

[NothinButAttitude]

I am pretty certain they talked about Casey's death. If I am not mistaken, one of Katie's early arcs on the show was that she found the tapes that Casey recorded prior to them passing. 

(re: Goutman) I hate when people in power down the line have remorse for something that was painfully obvious. Had he not let his ego constantly get in the way of the betterment of the show, I think ATWT would've had a fighting chance. I am glad that he is no longer staining the remaining four soaps with this stupidity. 

(re: Katie) Fans disliked Katie b/c she was sanctimonious twit. For me, Katie was too one dimensional and had no good qualities. Every other vixen on the canvas (i.e. Carly, Emily, Molly, Allison) on the canvas at the time had something likable and redeemable about them. Katie started selfish and ended selfish. And don't get me started on how she became the moral high ground to Carly--constantly taking Carly to task as if Katie was some saint. 

The only time I found her remotely tolerable was when she was with Brad. Once he was killed off, it annoyed me to no end how they made her a sniveling martyr to the end. They even made Nancy's memorial episode more about Katie than Nancy and Hughes. And it still bothers me that Chris (now played by show-killer Cosgrove) got latched to Katie. Especially, in the early years when Katie never truly felt remorse for getting him arrested for stalking during the Endicott Awards story. 

I do think that had Katie had more familial scenes with Craig and Margo, she would've been layered even more. Most of her scenes with Margo consisted of Margo cleaning up her messes or scolding her. And her scenes with Craig consisted of Katie scolding Craig or running to him for assistance to handle something on her behalf unethically. 

While I enjoyed Sheffer's era most than many, he did do a lot of stupid sh*t. One of them being writing all of Lyla's kids so dislikable. Margo became too judgmental and that arc with Doc Reese... yikes. She lost all of her edge from previous eras. Craig was too cartoony. They erased any progression Craig had made b/c Sheffer was eager to have a Victor Newman/Sonny Corinthos/Stefano Dimera type villain on ATWT. Looking back, they should've made Hunt Block play Rick Ryan (Babs' brother) instead of Craig. All of the stories they played could've easily played with Rick. He still could've been the town pariah that lusted after Carly. 

[adrnyc]

You must not have watched the show. Katie and Craig (and Margo) all had a bazillion scenes together over the years.

And when Katie first came on, she found the tape that Casey made asking Margo to pull the plug and Margo actually pulling the plug. There was an entire storyline around it where Katie hated Margo. Tom and Nancy and Kim and Bob - everyone explained to Katie what was going on at the time and how bad her father's condition was. (Remember Katie was only 16 so would rightfully be upset to find out her sister killed her father.) I've been making my way through the show and fall of '98 was just 18 months ago for me which was when the storyline took place.

Sometimes fans complain about the writers not knowing the show's history yet prove that they themselves don't know the show's history. Why? Oh right...because they didn't actually watch it.

Edited to @DramatistDreamer who seems to be reminded as well.

 

That's untrue. Again, having watched it recently...when Katie first came on, she was a sweet and likable character. Kind, considerate. Made friends with the other teenagers and was a confidante to many of them. It wasn't until Leah Laiman began writing (and actually it was 6 months into her tenure) that the character became a vixen.

Edited March 31 by adrnyc

[NothinButAttitude]

You must can't read b/c I said Katie and Margo's few scenes (none of them adding layers or progressing Katie) consisted of Margo either cleaning up Katie's messes or scolding her. 

And I've been watching ATWT since 1992 with my grandmother and mother. Don't try it. 

Clearly your didn't watch or you would've known about the scenes of Katie/Margo and Casey tapes.. 

Edited March 31 by NothinButAttitude

[adrnyc]

 

I do know about the scenes re: Katie/Margo and Casey tapes...I guess YOU can't read because I had a paragraph about it in my post. LOL Margo and Katie having scenes together where Margo is cleaning up Katie's messes or scolding her...by definition...means they're in scenes together. Also, once Sheffer rehabilitated Katie back into the original character as under Lorraine Broderick's tenure, there was no need for Margo to scold her or clean up after her. Did you watch ATWT in the 00s. If so, I'd think you'd know this. 

Katie, Craig, and Margo had many scenes together where they fought, argued, and loved one another. Just like any family.

Edited March 31 by adrnyc

[NothinButAttitude]

Their "family" scenes consisted of Margo taking a moral high ground and Katie or Craig getting scolded for their stupid, selfish act. Hell, most of Craig and Margo's scenes were of them in at Oakdale PD. I remember nothing about those scenes being warm and fuzzy, which has been my point. The relationship between the three of them lacked loved and complexity compared to other familial relationships on the show. 

And quit trying to declare who didn't watch the show or don't know the history just because they don't agree with your opinion about Katie and why folks felt she was a sh*tty, one note character. If I (or anyone else for that matter) have questions or concerns about the show's history, you are the last person in this thread I'd come to.

Furthermore, if you could read (again), the tapes comment was initially lodged at another poster. You brought your ass in here and assumed like it was towards you. I was speaking to you about Goutman and why people don't particularly like Katie. So please just...

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[adrnyc]

You know what...I owe you an apology. I'm sorry. I see now how I got confused about who I was responding to for certain reasons. That's a product of multi-tasking - not giving my full focus to one thing. So I honestly mean I'm sorry and I hope you'll accept it.

I'm about ready to go into the Scheffer era and I'll do my best to post episodes that have warm familial relationships between those three siblings. (Should they exist. I'm willing to admit that my memory might be faulty. I watched them 15 to 25 years ago. What I've seen over the past 7 years are everything that exists on YouTube from the beginning until March '00. I've yet to get to where I began watching but I know it's before Rose came along and that's gotta be any day now.)

Sometimes, when I ask why people hate Katie so much, I feel as if people give me reasons that don't strike me as truthful to how things actually occurred on the show. That they're more people's perceptions of the character that I simply don't share. And I try to constructively argue as to why I disagree.

One thing I know about you: you clearly love As The World Turns. As do I. I'm going to try to go forward holding that in my mind and being more respectful. 

[NothinButAttitude]

Apology accepted and I apologize too. We both clearly love this show and have a difference of opinions. We'll just agree to disagree and go from there. No need for us to detour this thread with being crass and bitter to each other. Slate marked clean. Moving on. 

Plus, we're all going to grieving on the 2nd as it'll be yet another anniversary year of our beloved show.

[Mitch64]

Katie (with EddieMan) found the tape of Margo offing Casey..and they were like, "Oh, that's sad...but she did what she needed to do," and that was the end. It could have been dramatic but..no.  

I didn't mind Katie that much either,  though I enjoyed her best in her early trouble making days. She held her own with Hayes that great scene where Kim told her to walk away from Chris now if she isn't totally onboard...but I wasn't a regular watcher through most of Sheffer and beyond to really understand why people were annoyed with her.