Marlena De Lacroix's "Only the Bests" List 2008

[Jess]

My post had nothing to do with Nash. You and people like you turned the discussion to Nash out of some excuse for my disliking Saint Ron. First, Vee, I did not stop watching OLTL before your sainted one started writing. I guess there is some contradiction in your argument: one that some people criticize the sainted one who did not watch him and then some have a conspiracy theory about Nash. The show stunk before Nash died. It was boring. I said it was boring at the time. Yeah, I enjoyed Nash, I enjoy Gabby, I enjoyed Evangeline. They are not the reason I stopped watching the show. I stopped watching the show because your sainted head writer stinks.

You know, you spend a great deal of time criticizing other writers on other shows in long-winded posts. Guess what people get to criticize the hack writer that you love too.

[rangethatrover]

Jess I have no need to respond. Your response spoke volumes.

[evermore]

Wow. I just read this entire thread for the first time... nice to see so much passion over OLTL!

I agree with some of the points about the show that almost everyone has made. The Mendorra and 1968 storylines were awful last summer, and Tina's return was criminally mishandled. I blame Ron for those. At the same time, Starr's pregnancy, Viki and Charlie's relationship, and nearly everything Dorian and Todd have done this year have been riveting. I blame Ron for those, too.

The show has been incredibly uneven this last year, and yet I enjoy watching it now more than I have in years... since the mid 80s I think. And it's not necessarily the big storylines that keep me coming back: there are so many smaller things, even during the non-sweeps months when the plot isn't going anywhere quickly. The short-term veteran returns, even when they're not done well. The episode titles, even when they're not done well. And the characters... in small roles, Dr. Joplin and Janet the nurse got to shine; John Paul Lavoisier isn't the greatest actor, but he genuinely seems to have fun when he gets to work with Robert S Woods, Ilene Kristen, and Melissa Archer (and vice versa), just as Michael Easton seems to actually enjoy his scenes with Ilene and Trevor St. John... these scenes are a pleasure to watch. And so many memorable moments: Todd finding Starr and Cole in bed, Todd pushing Starr down the boardwalk steps, Blair reacting to the doctor's news that Starr was pregnant, Starr appearing in the couthouse bathroom after Marcie's heartbreaking meltdown, Viki finding Charlie in the alley, Dorian waving good-bye to Mel Hayes' ghost in July, Todd and Marty playing piano, Cole seeing his mother alive in the hospital hallway, Nigel slapping Jared in the face, David saying "I miss that" when a furious Dorian screamed that she could horsewhip him, even Carlo whispering in Cristian's ear while holding him captive... not a scene (or storyline) I was fond of, but I won't soon forget that moment or any of the others.

At the same time, I hate that the Vega boys are still on the show while Lindsey isn't, that Rene and Nigel aren't on a lot more than they are, that Ilene isn't on contract and Robin Strasser has had to take at least one big pay cut (probably more). I wish Bree Williamson, Melissa Archer, and Farah Fath were more consistent in their acting. And what's with hiring a newbie to play a cop on contract when they've already got Fish on recurring? There may be good reasons for all of these decisions, but all I see are things I'd like to change.

Even then, I find more to like than to dislike about the show. For everything I'd like to change about it, I see more things that I enjoy, and whether that's because of Ron's writing or the actors' acting or other backstage shenanigans I know nothing about, I'll keep watching. And whether you love it or hate it, I hope all of you do too.

[All My Shadows]

Oh, so your overblown response to Forbes March's firing has NOTHING to do with your dislike for RC? Especially when at the time Nash was killed off, you said that it was just so that RC could write for his "beloved newbie" Jared. Puh-lease. How did that campaign go to have Forbes rehired?

Nine characters can be a great many. That's all subjective. But you didn't say that he introduced "a great many" new characters, you said he brought on "an entire new cast." Sorry, but nine newbies out of thirty-nine cast members (really, 10 newbies out of 40, because I forgot Kamar and that Wes Granger dude) is not "an entire new cast" no matter which way you slice it.

I didn't respond to that because I did not feel compelled to. I didn't have a problem with you calling Ron's stories rehashed, recycled, and campy. I've done the same thing myself, so why should I find fault with that? I didn't see any sense in your "entire new cast" comment, and so that's the part I quoted and that's the part I responded to.

There's nothing that I can say to this that I haven't said already. When you talk of people who gush and coo over Ron, you're not talking to me. I just spent a good little while (had to skip snow skiing!) looking at my own posts to make sure, and there have been many times when I've criticized the stuff that I don't like or didn't like. There's an active thread going on right now where I explained why I didn't like a lot of the things Ron did. Most of the times though, you can tell my dislike for a show or its writing if I just don't post at all. I posted about OLTL daily for months, but then I just stopped. Because I stopped watching and I stopped caring. Yeah, I sling [!@#$%^&*] about Mendorra and 1968 and all that, but I wasn't watching for the most part. I watched maybe once or twice a week, rarely a full episode. I saw all I needed to see (Natalie still stuck in a secret room, half the cast speaking in 60s slang) and tuned back out.

And you know, I think it's really unfair some of the things people say. A person who doesn't like RC gets aggravated when people jump all over them for not liking the man's writing, yet what do you think about the people who like Carlivati and can admit his faults and criticze what they don't like about his work? We don't exactly love being called "disciples of Saint Ron" and stuff like that. It goes both ways.

And for the bold...No, I do not make excuses for why you don't like him. You can dislike him! I don't care! I disliked him for months! I made excuses for why you said something as baseless and inaccurate as him bringing on "an entire new cast." It was probably the wrong assumption on my part, but I was under the impression that for you...a cast without Nash is "an entire new cast!"

[All My Shadows]

And see, because of what's in bold, the rest of your post will be dismissed by others and you'll be called a "disciple of Saint Ron." Just because you analyzed your feelings for the show throughout last year and came to a conclusion that isn't in line with "Carlivati is an overrated hack who needs to lose his job."

[Vee]

I didn't bring you up. I didn't even know you were in the thread. I was discussing Nash and the whole Nash's death issue overall. You've yet to respond to what's been said about it in any reasonable way, because it has to come back to some bullshit conspiracy theory.

[Vee]

Yes, of course. Only men could think you're a blazing hypocrite.

If you've proven anything since RC's run began it's that you want to make sure everyone cares what you think, and to let us know that if they don't, you are just being ground down into the dust by "the Church of Ron," a term I believe you thought up, heightening a testy situation and increasing the rancor you now pretend to abhor. Poor little you.

But I do. You told us! Over and over!

Oh, marceline. You want to act like you haven't told me, and the board, numerous times that you stopped watching the show on the regular the day of Asa's funeral almost two years ago, and have only watched a series of "clips" since. I mean, have I got that right? Now's your chance to tell me I've got it all wrong! But if I haven't, where the hell do you get off telling me not to question your viewing habits when it was you who put them out in the open?

I'm sorry, but if you play that "I gave up on OLTL before..." card you can expect it to be thrown back in your face - I don't care how many assorted clips you watch on YouTube, I have no respect or consideration for any poster who stopped watching RC in August 2007 but was already ready to crucify him two months later (I'm being generous here) and every day hence (without watching). Not only are you willfully and proudly uninformed, but you went into it with such clear bias and agenda that one gets the distinct impression that you never intended to give the man the slightest chance at all. It seems like you just read a couple fall previews and said "screw it." And that's supposed to make you the unsung prophet of our times, because you "knew better than to watch." Well, clearly you didn't, because opinion on Carlivati has been harshly split ever since he started. But did the initial praise ever give you cause to change your mind, or rethink your opinion, or give the show another real shot? No, you've just been sneering at all of us for almost two years.

At least I was able to come down on a writer I enjoyed and admit when he made big mistakes. That's called modulating my opinion as it grows and changes with the times. Your opinion is static bias, because you don't even bother attempting to invest yourself in what you are prepared to critique, you've already made up your mind. But we're the problem, evidently. Because we don't just let you vent about the show you stopped watching almost two years ago without any personal audience basis in your "arguments." Yes, it's terrible how the "Church of Ron" persecutes those who never bothered watching his show.

Give me a break. I'd have more respect for you if you'd just admitted you were angry that RC had ended several DH stories or that several characters had been written out, and you decided to write him off then and there based on personal character agenda issues. You'd hardly be the only one. But at least they admit it.

[Dr. Jay S.W.]

Wow. Just wow. As much as I would like to see SON more like it was of old, post like this make me greatful for the group of posters we have going on here presently. Bravo!

[miajere]

Ron is that you?

I thought this was opinions about an article, not fellow posters. If someone disagrees with another's assessment then so be it. No one here works with Ron, is married to Ron, etc....and no one here deserves to be treated as if they are on trial for their opinion- which all appear to run with their own individual posters' biases. What's being critiqued is a headwriter's work-. I have yet to hear Marceline preach on OLTL's day to day dialogue, performances, or production. Perhaps if you weren't so wrapped up in your own biases you could read how extremely hypocritical your posts run. I'm beginning to think perhaps you have written some posters off based on your own writer's agenda issues.

I've watched Ron's work and I don't anymore, I thought much of his highly regarded work stank and have a DVR full to prove it. IMO His work is contrived at best. My only hope is that Ron is a creative professional and understands that not everyone is going to like his work- it should have been in his contract before he took on his job. He's a big boy and I don't imagine him to be as thin skinned as his fans and the press make him out to be- if so his superiors have done him a great disservice in promoting him.

If we all had to be subjected to your scrutiny I doubt many would hold your respect; and since that's what we come here to get.....At least Ron gets a check.

[marceline]

I don't blame him for the circumstances. It was pretty obvious that something happened behind the scenes, beyond the strike, and he had to veer. But I have a personal pet peeve with writers who leave things loose and unexplained. I'd like to take a stick to Higley for some of the crap she pulled with Magical Spencer, Master of Space and Time. But I think writers owe it to their audience to wrap things up. Things like that don't make him a bad writer but they don't make him a good one either.

[rangethatrover]

At least I was able to come down on a writer I enjoyed and admit when he made big mistakes. That's called modulating my opinion as it grows and changes with the times. Your opinion is static bias, because you don't even bother attempting to invest yourself in what you are prepared to critique, you've already made up your mind. But we're the problem, evidently. Because we don't just let you vent about the show you stopped watching almost two years ago without any personal audience basis in your "arguments." Yes, it's terrible how the "Church of Ron" persecutes those who never bothered watching his show.

You said it perfectly.

I LOVE criticism and welcome it. Hell I can't even really say anything critical in the Y&R thread because it seems like a no negativity allowed thread. So I add my two cents when I have something nice to say. Oh well. I WATCH THE SHOW though. I am not just trolling,. But if you aren't watching the show and criticizing a writer's work- WHEN YOU DON'T EVEN WATCH IT you are basically a s-it stirring troll. If you currently watch, and hate it- i totally want to know why- But for those trash talkers here- I have yet to see many details here as to why. Hmmmmmm, I wonder why.... And when I ask someone like why she hates the CURRENT show- trying to have some sort of dialogue- she evades the question and gets nasty.

I generally find Marceline's posts pretty thoughtful and intelligent- I have no idea if she is watching the show or not- i am kind of surprised at this Vee/Marceline thing.

But as far as others and this Church of Ron bull-hit- ENOUGH. As a church of Ron member, MY SAVIOR'S SHOW BASICALLY SUCKED for 3 straight months. But to me, Todd and Marty was excellently done since day one. This is why I stayed watching. And in my opinion, from October on- has been some of the best soap opera I have seen in years. And the show has been consistently good. That's just one opinion of someone who watches every day.

I wish all of the name calling could stop, but if I hear this Disciples of Ron stuff I am gonna speak up.

Its embarrassing to be a OLTL fan here. If you hate it so much and don't even watch it,why would you even bother to post in a OLTL thread discussing the current show?

[rangethatrover]

Ron is that you?

+++Yet again, if you are a fan you are either from the Church Of Carlivati or RON HIMSELF. What complete bull-[!@#$%^&*].

I've watched Ron's work and I don't anymore

++++++At least you admit it! When did you stop watching officially?

[Dr. Jay S.W.]

Here we go. I do not see Vee as writing Marceline off for any reason. Vee has a good point. Marceline has said that she stopped watching the show, on this board and others. It's been said before, if you arent watching the show, you have no right to judge it. Of course we have free will and can say anything we want, but your opinion really isnt meaningful when you don't watch the show. This issue has been tackled in threads related to OLTL, ATWT, Y&R, hell all of them. Yes we all have opinions of our soaps. My personal opinion is that Ron Carlivati has been the "Historian" at OLTL for so long that his storytelling mirrors history telling and it shows. Many of his stories resemble other stories. Does he have the talent to be a great head writer and teller of new stories for the show? Yes, but presently he's "past storytelling", and fans dont want to see it, we've seen that before. Something about Ron though is that he brilliantly tells this "past storytelling" and fans dont want to see that so criticism comes that he isnt a great writer, he isnt doing his job...etc. Ron has had some wonderful stories that werent executed with justice due to the incapabilities of his breakdown and script writers. Ron has also put out some crap, like Mendorra, which was apart of his "past storytelling" vision. Let me say that If I disagree with another poster, I will damn sure make it known, and I actually think it's more respectful to call them out by name so no one else thinks you may be alluding to them and crap gets started.

That right there miajere, is direct hypocrisy of what you were trying to tell Vee. You did it while trying to get Vee to stop. Check yourself first kid.

[Vee]

How heartbreaking. No one put marceline up to "scrutiny" but herself when she started her condescending stream of posts about OLTL in fall 2007 and proudly assured us that she stopped watching before Ron Carlivati's work hit the screen, but fear not! - that would not stop her from telling us all about how we are emptyheaded simpletons who "worship" a hack. She's got only herself to blame if her own comments are brought to bear against her opinions and her weeping for the incivil tone of the discussion. I may be an [!@#$%^&*] but at least I bothered to watch what I trashed. And despite my misgivings, I never claimed that people who were willing to give, say, Chuck Pratt a shot on AMC were members of "the church of Pratt," vacant ninnies with no sense of taste.

Oh, I've written her off. And why shouldn't I? She wrote RC off before his team took over, and she's been making us pay in bandwidth for every week since. It would be one thing if she did it civilly, or acknowledged the flaw in her ratio of viewing habit to opinion, but she took a holier-than-thou tone early on when she began holding forth about "St. Ron and the Church of Carlivati" and has never deviated. My tone may be obnoxious but you won't catch me holding a pity party because other people like the wrong HW.

[Sylph]

That can be disputed.