Marlena De Lacroix's "Only the Bests" List 2008

[Vee]

I agree, but I think it's a slippery slope too. I mean, there are plenty of pointless, nasty, shock-value deaths on daytime in the last 10 or 20 years especially. Just because I felt Nash's death was well-done does not mean I defend the callous treatment of, say, Gabrielle or Georgie Jones or Al Holden. Now of course marceline will say, "well, you hate those because it wasn't Carlivati, or because you liked them better than Nash." True, they weren't RC, and true I liked those characters better. But that wasn't the reason their deaths didn't work for storyline. They were done for shock value, they had no larger purpose for galvanizing the canvas or the storylines, they did not twist a huge storyline in an organic and stunning way, and they are not still felt on the canvas today. Whereas today, people still deal with what happened to Nash in a very real and difficult way, especially as Jessica tries to forge some kind of peace with her sister and Natalie and Jared feel equally awkward. It's possible I could have really applauded the deaths of those characters were the stories done well, but those writers (and others, with other characters) dropped the ball.

I think it helps Nash because frankly, his creator did nothing with him. People wanted to see relatives, but did Nash get any? A real backstory? No; he was written as a cipher for March to inhabit the best he could. If you're going to fault anyone for that, fault Higley, who left her baby Nash blowing in the proverbial wind in 2007, after his popularity had already been dealt a severe blow by her writing of the Jessica/Nash affair. She was the one who left him compromised. He was appealing, but ill-designed from Day One.

*snort* We're not dealing with Todd Manning or Phillip Spaulding here. That is not going to be happening.

[marceline]

All marceline is going to say is that I don't presume to speak for you, don't presume to speak for me. Or are you incapable of even that basic level of courtesy?

[DeeeDee]

Yep.

[All My Shadows]

I admit that the returns were a bit much. That can't be denied, but I wouldn't personally say that it was all for stunt. Tina? Carlo? Yeah. I'd say they were stunt, even if the stunt was just the anniversary, it was still stunt to me (people, feel free to disagree). But Allison and Pamela weren't. Allison was a victim of the strike. She was gonna come on and be integral to something, but the strike came along and she got lost in the shuffle, and so in retrospect, her return seems pointless and without vision. As far as Pamela, that was the type of return that I think soaps should do more often. It made sense for her to return for that Jared is/isn't a Buchanan drama. RC did good by tying Jared's past in with Pamela's, and IMO, it worked, and it was a good way to have Christine Jones reprise her role twice. Now Pamela, probably thought to be a long-gone character from the past, is relevant to at least a small part of the present (and there didn't have to be endless flashbacks and nostalgia-overdosing for it, btw).

Marriage. Me and this post.

[Vee]

You'll have to forgive me; my wacky idea of courtesy involves "watching a show before judging it." I'm not sure I can stomach another lecture about the failings of the Buchanan Enterprises storyline from the woman who quit OLTL before it began.

[marceline]

I don't have a problem with temp returns. On the contrary, I think that if soaps stand a chance of attracting top-tier talent, short-term contracts a la Eden Riegel and Tuc Watkins will have to become the norm. Look at Tea/FL.

I have no doubt that FL wouldn't be on this show at all if it weren't for a short-term deal. And as an old school TnT fan, I'm thrilled to see the response to Tea's return. After everything she went through at the hands of the TnT/TnB fanwars, Florencia deserves every accolade (and dollar) she gets. I don't know anything about Pamela nor do I care (yeah I know...the almighty "history") but if they need a body to fill a role they might as well dig up an old character.

Allison is a different matter. This is another example of Ron being given a free pass because of the strike. Did plans change? Yes, obviously. But bringing Allison on was his idea and the strike was a year ago. That kind of loose end is reminiscent of Higley. So am I allowed to hold Ron responsible for not wrapping up that story or am I supposed to give the Soap God a pass?

I love FL and TSJ but that doesn't change the fact that when I watched their scenes, I saw two great actors trying to make sense of crap writing. Am I allowed to hold Ron responsible for that?

It just seems like the Disciples of Ron - and I don't mean you - are awfully flexible on what he deserves credit for and what he deserves blame for. I may be a judgmental bitch but at least I don't blame/credit Ron for things that aren't his. For example, Tarty=Ron, the women on the show having no purpose outside of man=Frons.

[Vee]

As RC said, he had scripts ready to go before the strike to finish out February and presumably the Allison twist. According to him, production chose to throw the scripts out. But I'm just making excuses!

I could hardly say that Nora, Viki, Dorian, Blair, Tea etc's only purpose is a man either. Blair, though with John, is focused on her family's well-being, while Viki is focused on Jessica's recovery, Jessica the same, Natalie is raising Jess's kids, and Nora is mostly in court battling it out with Tea, who only cares about a) power and enabling rapists. Many of us find Tea's return to be extremely, delightfully in character. And those who didn't like her before do now, because she isn't Todd's whipping post/savior as before. She's just batshit. We know it, the writers know it, the actress knows it. It's good times.

[marceline]

Little girl you have no idea what I have or haven't seen. FYI, I've watched clips of this suckfest (and regretted it.)

But why should I have to tell you or anyone else that?

When did YOU become The Decider of who is allowed to post and who isn't? Are we not allowed to post unless Vee, High Priestess of the Temple of Ron decrees that we've put in enough viewer hours? Is there a form we need to fill out? Interesting commentary from the same girl who tore her hair and rent her garments when Ron had Marty and Todd screwing like weasels.

And for the record, I've never, ever, not once, on this board "lectured" or commented in any other form, on the BE storyline because I simply didn't give a damn about it. Perhaps you are confusing me with one of the many other people who don't worship Ron.

We agree on one thing: you have a wacky idea of courtesy. Actually, "fucked-up" might be a better way of describing it.

[Vee]

marceline, I have an idea what you watched because you told us so yourself several times, with pride. It could the BE story, it could be Viki and Charlie, it could be Jared and Natalie, you name it, you've complained about it and yet, you haven't watched it. The flaw in your supreme logic appeared to escape you before, so I'm pointing it out to you. If you made a point to stop watching OLTL before the man you demonize began to headwrite for it, and only grudgingly watched some "clips" of the "suckfest," then I have no reason to believe you ever intended to give anything you watched from post-Higley OLTL serious consideration. I'm afraid that kind of willful, prideful ignorance is something that I have decided not to give any "serious consideration." At least when Dena Higley gutted my show, I sat there and watched for long enough to realize the depths of my problems with the show. I didn't tune out on Michael Malone's last day. I could say I understood what happened, and I could say I knew what I was talking about. But you were ready to trash Carlivati before his work began to appear onscreen, and you made that clear to anyone who would listen, and even those of us who would rather not. It's not his fault Evangeline got written out. Blame Higley. I may have a certain attitude you don't like, but you came into this endeavor last year incredibly contemptuous from the outset towards people who enjoyed the show. I believe you even coined the term "the Church of Ron" in the depths of your self-pity, though I may be wrong. The person who set the rancorous tone of these discussions was you, and you did it a long time ago. Class follows class, honey.

I don't worship Ron Carlivati, and I never did. I was never comfortable with the overwrought praise lavished on him early on, but I did feel he was very talented, and still do. I had and still have major problems with the Todd and Marty mess, and I said so. But I at least had some personal, hands-on insight into what I'd watched, because I'd, you know, actually watched it. Whereas you just come off drunk and embittered. So if you'll excuse me, I've my own drinking to do.

Oh, and you got my gender wrong too.

[marceline]

I apologize for getting you're gender wrong. I can admit when I've made a mistake. And things make a LOT more sense now.

I don't care what you think about me or my opinion of the show. But if you insist on dismissing people because they don't watch, then you should actually know they don't watch. And since you can't, then shut up. You don't have any idea of what I've watched. You only have the idea of what you think I've watched.

Your whole post is filled with assumptions about what I think, like and want. Most of them are wrong.

I, you know, actually watched it too. That's how I know it sucked. The difference is that I don't expect posters on this site to clear their viewership credentials with me before affording them simple respect.

So I guess I need to say this again: I don't presume to speak for you, don't presume to speak for me. Or are you incapable of even that basic level of courtesy?

[DeeeDee]

How long is FL back?

[All My Shadows]

Well, see, I don't think a return like Pamela's is supposed to make a newer viewer interest in history of whatever. If a newer viewer wants to douse themselves in OLTL history, they'll do it without having to see an old character pop up. I think that it just adds something. We could have had any old character come in and fill that role, by picking a character that has history with the show, the people who are indeed aware of Pamela and what she did on the show can say "Well, yeah, that's how that happened," or "Yeah, that's really how it was" or whatever. It adds a piece of continuity for me. All of that is JMO, though.

Well, I don't think there's a need to give him a pass because it's not necessarily his fault that Allison was such a loose end. He came back and did what he wanted with what was there, and he chose not to go the Allison route. I think that was a big mistake, but I can see why he might have chosen that. Allison had been out of the picture for a while, whatever he was building up to with her before he left was no longer in play it seemed, so I can get why he let that go. I wish that he would have revisited that, but I can't pin the circumstances on him.

I share your sentiment, and that's something that transcends OLTL, believe me. Everything good that McT did in her last stint at AMC either doesn't exist (and is just a figment of my imagination........?) or was the work of someone else. No one thought about JHC's involvement in what made the show suck until after McT was gone. All of this JHC bashing going on now...where in the hell was it when we had the unabortion storyline, wall-to-wall Rylee, and what-not? Was JHC not the EP then as well? But all of the bashing went to McT, as if she was the sole entity in charge of the show.

[marceline]

Bless you, All My Shadows!

Bless you for

a.) seeing beyond my earlier snarkiness (it wasn't really directed at you) and;

b.) bringing this thread back to the appropriate subject.

I promise to respond to your very thoughtful post tomorrow, a.k.a. next year but I don't want to end this year bitching and fighting. I've really enjoyed...um...95% of my interactions here! . So happy 2009 everyone!

[Jess]

First of all, I have a life. You should try it sometime. I do not come back to the fanboards 12 times a day to see your outrage at my disliking a hack writer. I went snow skiing. It was a lot of fun. Thank you for your interest in my whereabouts.

That being said, and in response to your earlier post, I watch Young and the Restless and think it is an excellent soap. Does that allow me an opinion on soap operas, or are the only opinions allowed those that comport with yours? I watched OLTL through Malone and Griffin and thought during most of their tenure they were excellent writers. I even watched Hack. I stopped watching at Ron's crap.

Now as far as sick, immature rants, read your own., You are a fangirl/fanboy who is obsessed with a writer. How is that any different that being obsessed with a character?

You know what, your love affair with a poor writer is your business. I get to dislike his lame ass just as much as you love it. Anyone who criticizes Saint Ron, I guess, is some kind of idiot or fangirl. He's no better a writer than all those other hacks who are criticized on this board. I do not have to defend my point of view to you. Now you want to argue, go for it. When I check back in, after doing things like having fun and working, I'll respond to your little rants. Now I will be out of pocket for a bit and probably won't be checking the boards. It is a holiday and I'm going to enjoy it.

Happy New Year and I'm out of here for a while. Don't start name calling because I don't check in for a few days.

[Jess]

What has Nash got to do with this? And you don't think, nine new characters is a great many?? That is nine new characters at one time, not nine newbies spread over Ron's two abysmal years as head writer.

It also ignores what was said in my post. Ron's stories are rehash, recycled and campy. The hidden room, time travel, the stupid other country story, switched babies. They guy is totally unoriginal. I guess the Marty and Todd story was original. Sick, but original.

You gush and coo over Ron. Good for you. I think he sucks. You know, add this to another list of excuses for Ron. Not only are there excuses for his poor writing, now you make excuses for the fact that I don't like the guy. I liked Gabriella and continued to watch after she was killed off. I liked Max, and continued to watch after he was fired. I liked Evangeline and continued to watch after she was dumped. I liked Troy and continued to watch after he was dumped. I liked Nash and would have continued to watch except Ron sucks. I guess there is an excuse for everything when it comes to Saint Ron.

By the way, a lot of people did stop watching after those characters were dumped. That was there right.

Now, I do want to say that I watched OLTL after Nash died, more out of habit toward the end of the summer than anything else. I probably took it off my DVR sometime in July. I give Ron credit for one thing, and it is a big thing. He is the one writer over the last three or four who said he was going to give Viki and real romance, and he did. Kudos to him for that.