There were quite a few recasts and dismissals in the first few years.

Which do you think were warranted?

Were any of the recasts improvements?

Making so many changes at the start immediately gives the impression that there is a sense of failure and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

20 hours ago, Khan said:

If you want to "break new ground" and depict the turbulent goings-on at an Ivy League-ish university (which isn't really breaking new ground, amirite, BRIGHT PROMISE?), then write that. If you want to explore the socioeconomic and other differences among several families in a small East Coast town, then write that. But you can't write 'em both, especially on a brand-new show that's only 30 minutes (or so) and is filled with characters whom the audience doesn't know or care about.

I don't think the show was ever really intended to be a college soap. I know we've discussed this before, but there was not a strong emphasis on the college in those early episodes. There were stories set in the college, but not necessarily about the college. Roger's appointment to president was about political ambitions and pitting Jack's father vs. Lily's father as a layer of the Slater story and Garth positioned to be possibly a threat to Merrill / Roger's romance. All the college football stuff seemed to be background for Rita Mae and Billy's marital turmoil having Billy not fulfilling Rita Mae sexually while her husband surrounds himself with young studs.

The opening story about the prostitution does hint at the kind of drama that could have been examined. Even the aborted AIDS storyline could have dovetailed into the issues of college funding with a conservative college board and backers. I do think Nixon had intended the Lorna / Doug storyline to be much bigger than it was even though it was only hinted at in the bible. Lorna accusing Doug of sexual misconduct. Additional, the drug ring story was also aborted.

In addition, when FOX launched Tribes in 1990, Agnes Nixon was solicited for a quote on her thoguhts about a high school soap opera. Nixon bluntly stated that she personally didn´t know how to make that work because the characters would always age out of the high school. This would be the same with a college soap.

Having attended a small state university in upper New England in the early 2000s, I can say the idea of the town vs. the college should have been a bigger deal. The idea of the monied students (and some of the poorer scholarship counterparts) against the everyday citizens of the town who may have been aggravated by the students privilege but dependent on them frequenting their business is a level of tension that could easily fuel drama.

20 hours ago, Khan said:

I think Douglas Marland stayed as long as he did at ATWT, because he finally had an EP (well, two) who supported him and his writing fully. AFAIK, he didn't have the kinds of fights with Robert Calhoun or Laurence Caso that he had had with the producers at all his other gigs. They just left him and his work alone and concentrated on producing the show.

I hadn´t considered the EP element. That would make complete sense.

16 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

There were quite a few recasts and dismissals in the first few years.

Which do you think were warranted?

Were any of the recasts improvements?

Making so many changes at the start immediately gives the impression that there is a sense of failure and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

I think it´s hard for me to judge whether or not the dismissals were warranted when there were so many iconic characters who came after the show's opening months who were incredibly signifcant to the story in the long run (Shana, Dane, Ava, Kate, Harry, Gwyn, Trisha, Steve).

I think cutting Rita Mae and Billy was smart. I don't think they brought anything unique. I did like what I've seen of Rita Mae's affair with much younger man Tony Perrilli from the end of her run. Tom Lignon looks great jogging in place in his short shorts in some of the Italian clips, but that's not enough to build a storyline around unless your James E. Reilly.

Also, I think how they handled Roger Forbes was smart. They recasted and tried to enhance the story by pairing Merrill with Warren Hodges, the DA who prosecuted Jack Forbes and was considering vying for the same open political seat that Roger was. I think John Shearin has that boyish charm that people associate with JFK, but Peter Brown had more an air of authority. I could see Peter Brown holding his own against Anthony Herrera's Dane, but Shearin less so. Leaving Roger presumed dead left the story thread closed enough to move forward, but open enough to revisit when it suited the story.

On that note, shifting from Merrill Vochek to Shana Sloane was smart. I think Agnes Nixon's vision for Merrill Vochek was very provocative; she had no intention of settling down with Rgoer or any man. Her fears were rooted in her mother's death (in childbirth when delivering Merrill). In what is showing up in the Italian episodes, Merrill is more determined to land Roger for herself, which is not as interesting as I think Roger wanting Merrill and Merrill not wanting to setttle down and play house. This would have destroyed Roger's political career, whcih would have shifted him back to Anne. While Anne and Merrill were intiially friends, Shana and Anne were more acrimonious from fairly early on (at least when Callan White assumes the role). Pivoting the emergence of a stronger, business minded Anne in the wake of the arrival of her secret half-sister Shana after Anne's own issue of marital infidelity works well. Positioning PTSD sufferer Mike Donovan, Anne own's brief extramarital fling and Jim Vocek's best friend, as the centerpiece of their romantic tension was just smart. In addition, you have Dane Hammond, biological father of Anne's adopted son Jack by her college bestie Linda Henderson, Cabot's rival, and Shana's confidant, weaving his way in and out of their story with his own sense of law and justice against Dane's questionable gray morality. It feels a little bit tighter than the original storyline and fixed some of the issues in the bible (Anne's lack of prominence when her family is so prominent, for one).

I don't think there was much use to keeping June Slater in a prominent role as a lot of her story would have paralleled Anne's (the alcoholism, starting over her husband's death). I do think it would have been neat to have her as a boarder at Kate's in 1984 as Ava sets out to snag Jack Forbes with June's story as a tale of caution for her. Maybe June could have been involved with Harry Sowalsky (June had a taste for the wrong men) and acted as a defacto mother to Steve with her own child still locked away in a hospital. I think I also would have given her a smaller position, maybe a secretary at AE and a talk to for someone like Curtis.

I'd argue that Lily Slater should have come back in mid-1986 when Stacey and Jack are married with Stacey's pregnant with her first child and Ava and Curtis are on the verge of a divorce. Lily and Curtis reconnecting (instead of Curtis and Lotty) would have made more sense. I think Lily wouldn't be Gwyn's ideal choice for a bride so you could play the Gwyn / Curtis / Lily triangle. I also wonder if you could have done Steve / Lily as a distraction from Steve / Trisha instead of Steve / Cece.

I think weaving the Donovans in and out was smart, but I don't think they should have been abandoned in the mid-1980s. I think Mike could have returned in early 1987 for the Nick Dinatos murder which could have pitted him against Shana while you could play Mike / Anne during the Harry / Anne / Gwyn triangle.

I've spent some time in 1990-1991 episodes mostly trying to timeline the episodes. Both set of recent episodes (June-July 1991 and October-December, 1990) pick up with other episodes the Random Episodes uploader has already put up. I haven'tswatched all of them yet, but some things have stood out when I'm skimming to figure out when episodes are from:

• Late 1990 is VERY heavy on the mob story, which I dont' think I knew. There are elements I really like such as Rio going undercover to work for Paul, Alex's investigation, and Yohanna Yonas (Stevie) is a stunning woman. There are clunky parts for me (Carly's backstory as Loren Wilcox that also seems to be tied to a some General Ramirez in San Felipe is giving Joe Hardy/Gene Palumbo General Hospital vibes). Colleen Quinn is fun as a more cunning, deceptive version of Carly before her more morally gray version I see for most of the 1991 - 1992.

• The sequence surrounding the reveal that AE was behind the defective plane parts is quite strong with Dane's henchman Robert making the connections, Dane rushing off to confront Cabot, and Cabot having a medical crisis. Cabot LINGERS in the hospital for quite a bit of time while random day players are murdered in the cover up. I don't think I was aware of the density of the story with all dead bodies piling up.

• Rocky's cheating story had more ramifications than I thought and it was nice that this wasn't a case of someone being set up (i.e. Karen Wexler in 1993 on General Hospital). Also, I think this leads to a later sexual harassment story, which is intriguing because now they've set up Rocky academically as not always honest.

• The Norma and Denny/Wally zombie stuff was odd until I realized these episodes are around Halloween and that Wally has been impersonating Denny. Norma having her own set shows the budgetary differences between 1990 and 2026.

I can agree with Babbin, who said at one point she still wasn't happy with the writing on the show by early 1991. It's a more colorful show , but not always strong. I feel the June, 1991 episodes are much richer.

The Tommy story really worked at uniting the canvas. It's also interesting to see what the story is doing to Trisha, who is very self reflective and having a morality crisis as she secretly Hope's that Clay has killed Monty so that she and Trucker can keep Tommy. In the July episodes, Trisha is going to the jail and offering to help Clay get out in exchange for custody of Tommy in a move that makes her more and more Clay and Gwyn's daughter. It's a fascinating character exploration of the depths one will go to o achieve a goal. They ground it in conversations between Trucker and Trisha about the loss of baby Ben and not properly grieving the death of that child. I wish this level of introspection occured later in the year under Ryan Munisteri.

I also was unaware that Carly and Clay married on the day that Ava and Paul were suppose to marry for the first time in 1991 (of the three times this occurs). Carly is really a trip. It didn't Dawn on me that Ally Rescott arrives in the midst of all this chaos, quite literally, showing up at some family event originally intended to be Paul and Ava's wedding reception, I assume. I also didn't realize that they had paired Matt Ford and Louie Slavinski so early in a father/son type dynamic. Bernie Barrows did so good in these type of relationships (especially later with Dinahlee),

Marisol Massey is a campy level of unhinged when she is back on the story coming at Clay with a knife in Carly's presence. I enjoy it much more than I probably should.

Bob Gunton as Barry Ryder, the mob boss targeting Paul, is a surprising move. I know Gunton from his work in The Green Mile, but in the early 1990s he was still appearing, or just stopped appearing, in Sweeney Todd so I guess this was a well know New York menace. The mob stuff seems a bit more tempered by summer of 1991, but still impacting the canvas.

This is all just random musings that I will probably expound upon once I watch more of the episodes properly.

1 hour ago, dc11786 said:

Having attended a small state university in upper New England in the early 2000s, I can say the idea of the town vs. the college should have been a bigger deal. The idea of the monied students (and some of the poorer scholarship counterparts) against the everyday citizens of the town who may have been aggravated by the students privilege but dependent on them frequenting their business is a level of tension that could easily fuel drama.

ICAM!

Agnes Nixon's comment on writing a high school soap opera echoes what I've said about school-related shows in general. Either you 1) keep all the students in the same grade for several seasons, which makes them look developmentally delayed; or 2) you allow one cast to graduate "on time" and introduce a new cast when necessary, which runs the risk of the new cast not clicking with the audience; or 3) you follow them from high school to college, which changes the show's entire premise.

14 minutes ago, Khan said:

ICAM!

Agnes Nixon's comment on writing a high school soap opera echoes what I've said about school-related shows in general. Either you 1) keep all the students in the same grade for several seasons, which makes them look developmentally delayed; or 2) you allow one cast to graduate "on time" and introduce a new cast when necessary, which runs the risk of the new cast not clicking with the audience; or 3) you follow them from high school to college, which changes the show's entire premise.

I know British soaps are a different beast, but it worked on Hollyoaks for years. The cast turnover rate was high, but the show was good at making you care about the new characters that came in to replace them. When they got rid of the college as a major backdrop was probably it's biggest mistake and if it were up to me and I'd bring it back immediately.

I think if Loving started out college based, fans would get used to losing some favourites every few years, as long as the show was smart to keep some around, but with a new purpose that could still tie to back to the college and/or the characters currently enrolled, and Agnes Nixon in particular, who was one of the best at making the fictional town a character all its own, probably sells herself short.

@Khan You mentioned earlier that the show needed to choose a lane with one angle (the college) or the other (the class divide). I do think they could have done both, but it would have meant being a bit more deliberate than they were. The fact that the Aldens had both AU and AE was a bit much because they were so separate, but I would have linked them. What if AE was growing into new industry (electronics or computer science for exmaple) and was looking to use AU as sort of a training ground for their company. Cabot would want more funds spent on building up this growing field's department at the expense of more classical studies, which mortifies Garth Slater who vehemently blocks any progress leading to the installation of Roger Forbes as president to push through these changes.

Maybe Doug Donovan is an assistant professor on track for a full time position, but the changing of funds means Doug's no longer able to be offered that role. In turn, Doug wonders if he and Merrill should wait as he was expecting that money to help with their future. Instead, Doug is forced to watch them expand the other department that would benefit AE.

In addition, this would be a reason that Cabot also wants to hush up the prostitution scandal quickly because of his new baby, the computer science department.

Tony Perilli was into computers and this would be a more logically reason for him to arrive in Corinth. And as a budding computer major on track for a role at AE, he can stay in town. As would other college students. Also, the increase in workforce would require more housing leading to more contracts for Forbes Construction.

Also, I would have made AU (with an alternate name) a product of Isabelle's family history which Cabot has had significant say as her husband. I would, over time, have Isabelle take a greater presence at the University and this cause issues with Cabot.

Damn, this thread is moving so fast lately.

On 6/27/2026 at 5:13 PM, DRW50 said:

The comments I saw about Walsh and Ava were that she wrote more about her career whereas in-between Ava spent more time crying over now having a man. Maybe I misunderstood what they said.

No, that's what I meant. I liked that after she started working at Burnell's, Ava had a career that she valued and was proud of how good she was at it. The career focus happens after Paul is written out and is a source of conflict between Ava and Leo (who wants a more "traditional" woman) in later '92, and comes up again in late '94 when Gilbert is trying to come between Ava and Alex, both periods when Walsh is credited as a head writer. Ava is a character that pretty much always works for me, but the amount of crying she does in 1993 about not wanting to end up alone is sometimes a bit much.

3 hours ago, dc11786 said:

I'd argue that Lily Slater should have come back in mid-1986 when Stacey and Jack are married with Stacey's pregnant with her first child and Ava and Curtis are on the verge of a divorce. Lily and Curtis reconnecting (instead of Curtis and Lotty) would have made more sense. I think Lily wouldn't be Gwyn's ideal choice for a bride so you could play the Gwyn / Curtis / Lily triangle.

That's such a great idea. I haven't seen very much of Lotty yet, but from what I have seen I haven't really warmed to the character (I don't dislike her, either; I guess I'm just indifferent). The Lotty/Curtis relationship seems to be propelled solely by Eban and his various evil deeds rather than by any particular heat between the romantic pair. Bringing Lily back for Curtis would have made for a more character driven story - plus, it would have been nice to see Gwyneth object to one of her kids' romances for a reason other than that the love interest was poor.

Fitting that there's been some talk lately of Tom Ligon:

https://deadline.com/2026/06/tom-ligon-dead-actor-1236970726/

I haven't seen enough of his work on Loving (the role isn't the type I'd usually invest in) but he was wonderful on Oz as one of the prisoners. I remember him pushing a guard down the stairs and then comedically going, "Whoops."

I was today years old when I found out that Regina Hall appeared on Loving at the start of her career. I was watching the August 16, 1994, episode, and she appeared. I'm like, "I know her!"

In story, the show is building towards the plane crash with Dinah Lee, Janie, and Buck. I've ranted so many times about Loving fumbling Janie, but Buck really was hurt by killing her off. He only exists to be an appendage to Stacy, flirts with Dinah Lee and then just Tess' plaything. Trying to find out who his daughter was centered him and he did have a nice rapport with Janie.

Regina is very good in that clip. A shame she was never in a bigger soap role.

Looking at the Loving blog I saw that Clay's father was named Sullivan and Gwyn's mother was named Sullivan, and they both had fathers they didn't know about until near the end of their lives.

I realize none of this was deliberate, but Gwyn and Clay truly were fated to have such devastating ties.

I wonder if Neal had told Gwyn he was her father as soon as he'd arrived in Corinth if it would have made a difference for her sanity.

Probably not.

Edited 3 hours ago3 hr by DRW50

On 6/29/2026 at 12:59 AM, Kane said:

No, that's what I meant. I liked that after she started working at Burnell's, Ava had a career that she valued and was proud of how good she was at it. The career focus happens after Paul is written out and is a source of conflict between Ava and Leo (who wants a more "traditional" woman) in later '92, and comes up again in late '94 when Gilbert is trying to come between Ava and Alex, both periods when Walsh is credited as a head writer. Ava is a character that pretty much always works for me, but the amount of crying she does in 1993 about not wanting to end up alone is sometimes a bit much.

I don't doubt any of this, but when I think of 1992 Ava, I think of all the Phantom of Burnell's stuff, which I don't hate (I feel like the Broadway references were ingrained into a lot of the New York soaps), but I don't think it's always the strongest story due to the outcome.

I am still furious how quickly McCarthy/Walsh or Nixon dumped the idea that the Sowolskys were the source of the Alden fortune. It was Ava's BeLieF moment and they squandered the energy in days for what seems to be the Gilbert story.

22 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Fitting that there's been some talk lately of Tom Ligon:

https://deadline.com/2026/06/tom-ligon-dead-actor-1236970726/

I haven't seen enough of his work on Loving (the role isn't the type I'd usually invest in) but he was wonderful on Oz as one of the prisoners. I remember him pushing a guard down the stairs and then comedically going, "Whoops."

Sorry to hear he passed. I saw some of his work recently in the Italian episodes. In thoseclips, it appears some of the impotence story may have made it to air, but not much. Billy is definitely avoiding sexual encounters with his wife. It's no just that he's busy, but that he makes himself busy.

I feel like they could have done a more Cat on a Hot Tin Roof inspired story with Rita Mae and Billy. I think Rita Mae already was coming off as a Maggie the Cat type anyway and you had the football angle. I think they could have done the angle of Rita Mae / Jack / Billy triangle (as a way of drawing out the Lily / Jack story and giving Lily / Curtis more space to play) by making Jack and Billy's relationship complicated. An adopted Jack who had a loving father in Roger, but who seems to emotionally crippled at times, being drawn to his football coach in a mentor way while Billy is drawn to the memories of his own youth and possibly a friend who he lost like Brick Pollitt's pal Skipper.

7 hours ago, CrazySexyQ said:

In story, the show is building towards the plane crash with Dinah Lee, Janie, and Buck. I've ranted so many times about Loving fumbling Janie, but Buck really was hurt by killing her off. He only exists to be an appendage to Stacy, flirts with Dinah Lee and then just Tess' plaything. Trying to find out who his daughter was centered him and he did have a nice rapport with Janie.

Janie was tossed away too quickly. Things just really unravel a bit the farther into 1994 the show gets. I also think Janie was a bit of a version of what Agnes Nixon was rumored to have planned for Ava in the mid 1980s. Supposedly, Nixon wanted to reveal that Ava was biracial, which is why I assume, in part, Nixon was seeking Ellen Holly to appear as Carla. I imagine that the plan was to have Carla take part in Ava accepting her racial identity as a way of revisiting Carla's own story.

I think Buck's connections to the canvas with Curtis as his business partner and Trucker as his brother were also helping to ground him. I do think the connection to Janie would have been a powerful story to tell given Buck's history. His own father had abandoned him and he had such a strong parental involvement with Stacey's kids. Having him have to come to terms with his past and the child he abandoned would have fit nicely into that character arc.

Videos 186-195 were uploaded. Today's treasure trove includes three period:

• Summer of 1986: This seems to be the lead up to last set of June / July 1986 episodes. I saw some scenes with Kate talking to Jim about Ava's secret regarding baby Johnny. I don't think it ever dawned on me that it was the Johnny fiasco that caused Curtis and Ava to break up. Given how erratic Ava acted in the year leading up to the resolution, I almost wish they had rested the character by locking her in a mental health facility. And of course, her roommate would be none other than Lily Slater, on the verge of being released...

• May 1990: More of Roya Megnot's return for you @DRW50 . This is all the lead up to the material that was posted earlier. It includes the scene where Isabelle sees Cabot for the first time since the Tattler picture. Remarkable work from the underused Dabney who cannot believe Cabot because of Shana's existence. I was shocked by how well done Alexis' heart issues was being handled. I think this is really a precursor, in some ways, to Taggart's 1993 story with Shana and Leo dealing with Patti's developmental delay. There is a very tender moment where Egypt recounts to Alex how she was unable to keep her class pet alive when she was a child alluding to her fears regarding little Alexis. It's also worth noting Mary Ellis Bunim is created in these episodes as EP so we have the turnover in May.

• January 1991: Lots of little surprises for me in this. Some stellar work from Noelle Beck who really lays into Cabot upon learning that he was behind the plane crash and that he was completely willing to put Trucker out to dry because he wasn't a member of the family in Cabot's eyes. Beck can tend to overplay things, in my opinion, but the pain here seems incredibly real to me. I think Trisha's arc in 1991 is pretty divergent from a lot of the material she has before or after. There was also the return of Lucho Domeq, who I didn't realize had come back in 1991. Some of the dialogue was very layered in ways that weren't necessary, but appreciated. The set up for Christopher Cass' arrival as Jack places Jack in a San Felipe prison and Lucho talks about how Ramirez uses the prison to lock up political dissidents and intellectuals and it all feels a bit too close to home to the modern world. Rio is still worrying about his immigration status and working as a double agent basically by working for Paul but reporting back to Alex. The Ramirez / Paul connection is interesting and I believe Ramirez is also tied to plane parts plot. I don't usually love these throwaway villains, but a lot of the material surrounding is written well so I don't hate it as much as others might.

Thanks once again for all your synopses of this material, @dc11786 !

I had forgotten Mary-Ellis Bunim had EP'd LOVING for a spell. What are everyone's thoughts (if any) on her brief tenure? Does anyone know why she didn't stay?

"I just should've shot him!" Gwyn about Clay in part #30. -45 mins

Do you all notice unintentional foreshadowing of the Murders when you watch old episodes? Or rather coincidences or ironic moments?

(Clay brought Trisha to where Gwyn is waitressing. She thinks it's to humilate her, but he actually wants Trisha to make peace with her.)

"I hope it teaches you to be very, very careful unless you'd like to be the next body to be found, Shana."

Stacey to Shana!! Stacey, what about being the first body?

Part 162. 26 mins

Trisha grills Gwyn, accusing her of murder. It reminds me a bit of the attic scene during Trisha's brief but exciting return in '95, where it seems Gwyn isn't as sure of her daughter's innocence as she'd like everyone to believe...As for Trisha accusing Gwyn of murder...who can blame her..she was just a bit ahead of her time.

Part 69 from the start.

"I think we could be terrific. I think we could be like the new Andrew's Sisters."

"At least one of them is dead, and you cross me again, and you will be too, Norma."

Gwyn to Norma after the latter crashes her singing gig. That's a credible threat, Norma. You should run or at least stay away from her cabaret act.

Part 163. 17 mins.

On 6/25/2026 at 10:42 PM, DRW50 said:

Thanks for the details - it can be tough to want to watch with the dubbing but I mean to someday. I appreciate all you are telling us. I saw that Schemering article saying 1984 was a strong year for the show - sounds like he was right.

Didn't Jennifer Ashe have an issue with the producer or was that someone else?

I'm not sure if this footage was already around, but there are some glimpses of Jonathan terrorizing Jim, including bright lights, signs of the cross that probably vexed a censor, and getting wood dropped on him. The bad video quality adds to the horror aspect.

@Vee @EricMontreal22

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #160!

@DRW50 You're welcome as always. The dubs are a bit jarring at first but I got used to it quickly. Other soaps in other languages: Capitol, the full series in Italian, OLTL, about 70 eps from 1980 in German, and Guiding Light with I think all of the 80s starting sometime in 1982, also in Italian.

Hopefully soon AI is able to translate the voices cheaply. A while ago, I tried a program which gave me a 5 minute sample. And it was sooo good. I easily would've thought it was an original American recording. But they are so expensive last time I checked.

If my memory serves me right from the Loving reunion video, Jennifer Ashe seemed over the abrupt ending to Lily, not too keen on the experience. It seems most of the women actually had issues with Joe Stuart, especially Susan Walters. I think she felt he belittled her and when she found out others were being paid more, despite being an original actress on Loving, she was outta there. Christine Tudor seemed to be the only one who really liked him!