@EricMontreal22 Thanks for all these articles, Some fascinating stuff. From that Agnes article, Loving seemed cursed from the start. I get the impression they were always chasing their tail, trying to establish story, casting etc without the proper lead in time to get things at least somewhat settled before diving in.

Never seen a pic of Tom King before. I wonder what the Taggart/King comedies were like?

With Millee having such a history with SFT I wonder whether they would have made good headwriters at her old show?

Re the accusations of homophobia with Granger—I have that scan saved together with a report of Granger going back on her word and not bringing back Larkin Malloy as Clay after he was replaced for an agreed on leave. Was Larkin gay? Trying to think why I connected the two when I was organizing (I see his wiki says nothing about his love life).

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by EricMontreal22

15 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Was there any mention in Loving's later years of Gwyn being Heather's grandmother? When Gwyn interacts with Stacey before the murders the focus seems to be on Stacey being Trisha's best friend.

Do you think if Noelle Beck had stayed the show would have done a Stacey/Trucker/Trisha triangle?

During the storyline where Gwyn & Stacey were fighting over Buck - Stacey drops by with Heather, and says to Gwyn "Heather say goodbye to GRANDMA Gwyn" - right in front of Buck.

12 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

Re the accusations of homophobia with Granger—I have that scan saved together with a report of Granger going back on her word and not bringing back Larkin Malloy as Clay after he was replaced for an agreed on leave. Was Larkin gay? Trying to think why I connected the two when I was organizing (I see his wiki says nothing about his love life).

It's possible this might be about Eric Woodall. He was a major front-burner storyline with Ally. Then all of a sudden, the storyline and character was dropped. Eric later came out, and his now a casting director and in a happy marriage with his husband.

BUT Granger did hire Paul Anthony Stewart, and he is gay. So who knows?

In terms of Larkin Malloy, I truly believe TPTB saw Dennis Parlato as a better fit as Clay.

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by TheyStartedOnSoaps

I liked Larkin a lot on AMC but I would agree with that. I did wonder why Matt seemed so suddenly dropped

1 hour ago, EricMontreal22 said:

Was Larkin gay? Trying to think why I connected the two when I was organizing (I see his wiki says nothing about his love life).

If I remember right, Sharon Rose Gabet said he wasn't. But she implied they were intimate, which I thought added a rather Neely O'Hara-Ted Casablanca vibe to her comments. (And I love SRG, honestly.) I'd love to get Jessica Collins or Lauren Marie Taylor's perspective.

16 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Was there any mention in Loving's later years of Gwyn being Heather's grandmother? When Gwyn interacts with Stacey before the murders the focus seems to be on Stacey being Trisha's best friend.

Do you think if Noelle Beck had stayed the show would have done a Stacey/Trucker/Trisha triangle?

I believe Kane mentioned some of this already, but during the Buck / Stacey / Gwyn triangle was the last time I remember Gwyn's role being consistently mentioned. Gwyn comes to pick up Heather when Stacey goes on a date with Buck and Stacey snidely makes sure to call Gwyn grandma infront of Buck.

I think they missed the boat. I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but I imagined a storyline in an alternate timeline where J.J. ended up blinded at the Rodeo bar, or whatever the country western bar in Corinth was, after being involved in an accident due to poor construction because Buck cut corners and hired a shady contractor who used substandard materials. Stacey would have become completely devoted to J.J. in his time of need and Heather, feeling alienated, would have drifted towards Gwyn. While Gwyn wouldn't purposely sabotage the Heather and Stacey relationship, Heather would slowly over time prefer to be with Grandma Gwyn who could indulge her every whim because she had the time and the money.

The show spends the better part of 1992 trying to build a Stacey / Trucker dynamic. At one point, it seemed out of necessity as Noelle Beck was on another maternity leave and Trucker had little to do so they were investigating the mystery at the Tides together. Now, I wonder if this was also a backup plan in case Beck left. Christopher Cass is dumped in July, 1992, when everything seems to fall apart. At one point, I think there may have been plans for a Stacey / Trucker / Trisha / Jeremy quad as Jeremy had been presented as a pseudo love interest for Trisha in 1991 and her previous interloper, Giff Bowman, fell into the same role as an artist working at AU.

On 6/25/2026 at 9:32 PM, soapfave06 said:

Thanks! I love your commentary and information, I am not overly familiar with Loving but I enjoy reading the thread.

I appreciate the kind comments.

On 6/25/2026 at 9:50 PM, EricMontreal22 said:

The only AMC soap bible I've read is from 1967 (presumably the one that Nixon felt she lost on her trip) and has MANY changes--far more than the Loving bible and is also about 1/3 as long if that. (One of the oddest things is Joe Martin and crew have the last name Craig--which she would use for OLTL--and the Brents, Ted and Phil and Ruth, are the Martins.

I think the changes are mostly superficial in the long run though, don't you agree? Granted, none of the Phil / Nick murder story happens, those characters remain for quite some time. Your recount did make me wonder more and more why there was never an attempt to bring back Amy to town after 1970, which made me realize there was no need for a mother figure for Phil because he had Ruth. I do think it would have made sense to bring Amy back in the late 1970s when Ruth had a biological child, Joey, and you had things like tension between Tara and Phil and Chuck over their son because that was a scenario she would have been familiar with in a slightly different way and may have had less sympathy for Tara than others. In addition, she probably would have made a nice complication to a Linc / Kitty / Nick storyline.

To keep this Loving related, this dynamic sorta plays out with Jack / Dane / Roger. While Jack's paternity is glossed over in the bible with a mention of him being the son of a couple who were friends of the Forbeses, there must have been the idea that they would explore that dynamic at some point. Dane's presence overlaps with Roger's only briefly (about 2-3 months) before Roger is jettisoned off to Washington, D.C., before being presumed dead in the plane crash. Like Amy, I think Roger should have returned at some point possibly in 1986 after Dane had departed and the show was thick into Shana / Doug with Mike and Noreen gone. I would have positioned Roger's return with a mystery involving the paternity of Merrill's child, who would have popped up with Merrill when Merrill was investigating the Zona Beecham murder case.

While I get the sense there wasn't enough character contrast between Amy / Ruth to maintain dramatic tension, though I could be wrong, I do think there was enough for Roger / Dane to have existed at a certain point. And it would have kept Ann from falling off into the abyss and never returning.

On 6/25/2026 at 11:51 PM, EricMontreal22 said:

It was interesting to me that for the Love bible Nixon already felt (maybe ABC had already asked for this) that she map it out up to the cliffhanger for the Olympics break. Also interesting the references already to the movie pilot (she constantly says "we have to remind audiences of this in case they didn't see the movie" etc) the movie of course is credited Story by Agnes Nixon, teleplay by Marland and Mulcahey.

You're right that the DID element to Lilly's story isn't there yet, although there's SOME suggestion of it in the bible (Lilly acting very differently in certain situations--but really that could just be a response to trauma in general.)

Didn't Marland pen, or want to pen, a multiple personalities story for Jane Elliot's Carrie when he was at Guiding Light? I don't remember the details except I think he left the show in part because the network had an issue with it? (Elliot of course was also on New Day in Eden though I'm not sure if it was a major role or not.)

(Thanks for the details on New Day in Eden--for all the interesting or major storylines that show had, it's a shame that the only full episode and clips we have for the show are... well pretty boring story wise lol.)

Of course having Lilly's multiple be with Curtis while Lilly is with Jack does have remnants of a switch on Nixon's original Vicki/Nicki storyline (except Nicky was "slumming it" with lower class Vince, not one of the richest family members around.)

I think that writers were deeply aware of the story timelines back in the day because they knew they needed to plot around them. I think that balancing act has been lost over the years. Also, with the revision to the pilot's conclusion (Amelia, not Johnny, was the head of the prostitution ring) derails a bit of the story for Merrill, Roger, and Ann as I recall Merrill was helping maintain the secret that Johnny had died by suicide. This secret could have allowed some non-romantic tension in that storyline that it probably could have used.

Jane Elliott's A New Day in Eden character was a romantic interest for the show's adult lead, Bryan Lewis. The character's name Madge Whitehead is similar to Rita Lloyd's Loving character during the Jack paternity story in 1984, Millicent Whitehead. Millicent was the aunt of Linda Henderson's late husband Hemsely, who had revealed that Hemsely was impotent or infertile (which I'm now realizing might have been a way to tell part of the original Billy Bristow story) so it was impossible he was Jack's father.

Now that you mention the Vince / Nikki story, I wonder if there was any intention of trying Lily's Trista personality with Tony Perrilli. In the Italian episodes, Tony admits he has moved to Corinth to be with his college friend, Jack Forbes, which I thought was an odd level of devotion, but I could see how Tony might be a bit of a Vince avatar for the story. I think Curtis and Trista/Lily was a smart move, but the dramatic tension between Curtis and Jack was never consistently utilized. It is presented quite nicely in some of those late 1985 episodes where Ava is cozying up to Curtis while married to Jack and still claiming Johnny as her son. The Ava reset in 1986 perplexes me because, it does make sense given Ava's horrible crime, but it takes her out of a story orbit she was firmly entrenched in. Her next couple of love interests (Judd Beecham / Tony Benedict) are fairly forgotten.

On 6/26/2026 at 8:01 AM, Soaplovers said:

Carthage was a major city/state and was an influential city during the classical period before it was detroyed by the Roman Empire and then rebuilt before basically being abandoned again.

The bible only alludes to, but doesn't full go into details about the events in the telefilm. The major revelation though is that Johnny Forbes was originally the head of the prostitution and was behind the murders. There doesn't seem to be an Amelia Whitley character at all. Johnny is described as a Joseph Kennedy type, a political mover and shaker with a bit of a shady criminal history. He was to die by his own hand and Merrill was part of the coverup to keep that information from the public. The impact on Roger's career is detrimental, but not completely decimating. I imagine some of this may have played into Nixon's original naming of the city.

5 hours ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I haven't re-watched the murders in years--this reminded me, did Rose even show up when Stacey was killed?

No. Rose last appears in November, 1991. At Christmas, 1991, she and Patrick are said to b visiting Doug in California (this is the last mention of Doug that I know of). By Nixon's return, Patrick is no longer around, but he was never killed off. I truly believe Nixon forgot that she hadn't offed him in 1984 like she had planned in the bible.

1 hour ago, EricMontreal22 said:

Re the accusations of homophobia with Granger—I have that scan saved together with a report of Granger going back on her word and not bringing back Larkin Malloy as Clay after he was replaced for an agreed on leave. Was Larkin gay? Trying to think why I connected the two when I was organizing (I see his wiki says nothing about his love life).

The article would be around the time that Larkin Malloy had gone out for a month on leave and Dennis Parlato took over. Parlato was originally a temp replacement and when Malloy was suppose to return, they fired him. There was also a period of time when Malloy was offscreen (late summer, 1992). When originally hired, Malloy had agreed to take the part of Clay because Addie Walsh had written for him on Guiding Light and he admired her work.

1992 has a big cast turnover, but it was under both producers. Granger would have recasted Celeste Holms with Patricia Barry. Let go both Roger Howarth and Eden Atwood. Dropped Christopher Cass as Jack. Dropped Richard Cox as Giff. Her hires would have included possibly Paul Anthony Stewart (he arrives very early in her run so its possible it was an Addie Walsh hire), James Carroll as Leo. Michael Gallardi as Armand Rosario. And negotiated the arrival of Jean LeClerc as Jeremy.

The general impression I got from the Men of Loving interview was that Granger was not well liked, but I couldn't tell if that was, in part, because of the antics that use to go on backstage during Joseph Hardy's era based on some of the comments and stories the guys were sharing.

1 hour ago, TheyStartedOnSoaps said:

It's possible this might be about Eric Woodall. He was a major front-burner storyline with Ally. Then all of a sudden, the storyline and character was dropped. Eric later came out, and his now a casting director and in a happy marriage with his husband.

BUT Granger did hire Paul Anthony Stewart, and he is gay. So who knows?

In terms of Larkin Malloy, I truly believe TPTB saw Dennis Parlato as a better fit as Clay.

Woodall leaves in February, and Haidee Granger's name doesn't appear in the credits until May. The press at the time claimed that Woodall wanted to go to college and his departure would line up with a second semester start. When Walsh comes in during January, 1992, the show had appeared to be gearing up for a Matt / Ally / Revel triangle wiht Matt and Revel as bandmates. So much of the Rescott story is dropped by Walsh and Matt fell into that story realm.

Keith Pruitt, who was out, was also let go under Fran Sears, like Woodall, but the show jettisoned that part of the cast to make room for the college kids.

Regarding the homophobia comment, it was eerie timing to hear this as I was thinking lately about how in late 1994 you have rumors that the show was going to bring on Steffi's father. Christopher Dunham was cast as Steffi's father in a November, 1994, flashback where Deborah basically accused the man of incest. I wonder if there were plans to bring him back, but I think the rumored history between him and Jean Le Clerc would have made that incredibly awkward.

@EricMontreal22 Those articles are mostly familiar, but I think there was some new ones. I don't think I've ever read Nixon's long rant about trying to launch the show. I'll be honest, it's very unflattering. I did appreciate the tidbit about Lloyd Bridges and Geraldine Page ad libbing in that bedroom scene that got cut.

Taggart and King seemed to enjoy each other's company. I find their work such a mixed bag. Some of their higher rated work (1989) is not my favorite, while their work under Babbin improves immesely especially when she lets them embrace more comedy, which they had also done under Hardy to a different extent. I struggle overall with the tone of Loving because sometimes it leans too much into the comedy. This was not a uniquely King / Taggart issue though.

Marland seems like he's restrained, which can be annoying. The comment about not staying at one show too long definitely didn't age well. It's worth noting that he is either exaggerating the comment about not being able to talk about the incest story or he and Nixon blatantly ignored it. June Slater returns for a one-off appearance in March, 1984, to resolve the story saying that Lily is not progressing at a sastifactory rate and will be staying in the sanitarium indefinitely.

Walsh's article is misleading in several ways. Most of the planned stuff doesn't happen (the romance for Arthur, Giff and Trisha's coupling never felt (to me) like it had that heat, Isabelle's secret storyline dies out much quicker) most likely because Walsh wasn't there the entire year like she is credited for. In addition, Fran Sears was the one behind the college revamp which is clear even in the Mary Ryan Munisteri episodes. Walsh is definitely behind the influence of the younger characters, but I would also be curious which characters she actually developed verse which characters were already in the pike when she arrived.

I wish Mary Ryan Munisteri had been interviewed about her time on the series, but she was there such a short time.