1 hour ago, yrfan1983 said:

I 100% agree that making Jill the daughter of Katherine was an awful idea.

But - is there anyone besides me who enjoyed the story itself? 🤣

I thought it had lots of great beats:

- The return of the Fosters, especially beloved Liz

- The incredible character of Charlotte, alcoholic fake Jill birth-mother, played indelibly by Elizabeth Harrower soon before her passing. Every line she spoke was just gold.

- Katherine’s stroke, which led to some great tense scenes as she knew Billy and Mac were cousins but couldn’t communicate it

- On that note, finally an interesting story for the beige and boring Billy and Mac recasts. I was just starting to warm up to them, when in the course of a week in June ‘03, they went from getting married, to breaking up and leaving town separately.

All that said, I’m quite happy the Jill/Katherine blood-relation was later retconned. I can’t keep track - is Jill still considered a Fenmore or was that also (hopefully) retconned?

I don't disagree with you. I've always thought that storyline was bad writing in terms of the overall decision, but well-written as a storyline. It was entertaining and suspenseful. I wanted to know what happened next (even though it was a stupid idea). I feel the same way about Cassie and John's deaths. Bad choices but well executed stories. 

 

While I was definitely against the idea of making Jill & Kay mother and daughter, it did make SOME sense in the soap way. I remember when I read around that time in one of the magazines that Jill actually had been married to Brock, but the marriage was never consummated, and thinking wow. I'm not saying that Bill Bell had that in mind, but it was interesting to know that, like an Easter egg from the past that somehow kept this mother/daughter storyline open as a possibility. The other thing was why did these two keep getting pulled towards each other for all these years despite being such bitter rivals? It made sense that it was Derek, then Phillip III, then fighting against Nina, then Rex, but by the mid-90s most of those ties were not that strong. And yet, when Keith Dennison dumps Jill, Kay for some strange reason asks her to move in, and even more strangely Jill agrees despite having plenty of money. Of course it was a setup for Jill to find the will and take over the mansion, but still, it felt like one of those little hints along the way that maybe there was something more to the relationship (either a lesbian attraction on Kay's part or long lost child, lol). 

 

The retcon would have been decent if not for it being mixed up in all of that Cane pretending to be Phillip and Phillip returning from the dead nonsense (all so that Nina could seen over Zoom "in Australia while visiting Phillip" except he is always in the other room!). I thought the Marge redux was stupid at the time but now I think of it as one of the last good Y&R stories. Kathering being poor and falling in love with Murphy, remembering who she was and fighting to take back her place in GC. The DNA test showing she's not Jill's mother and therefore apparently not Katherine, and Jill thinking she's a scammer until they finally realize Kay's DNA matches Brock's and it's Jill who is not related, and Jill lashing out in jealousy, saying that Kay always treated Nikki as her daughter. And at that very moment Mac coming home as Billy was marrying Chloe and realizing they weren't related (and with decent actors in all these roles at the time). That was good soap stuff in hindsight.

 

Lauren and Jill being sisters is still the case but seems to have been completely forgotten about to the point that Lauren wasn't even invited to Chance's wedding despite being Jill's only family in town.

I third the feeling that while this was an extremely poor "strategic" decision, it actually unfolded well - and gave those two wonderful actresses great material after a slow period.
I'd add that later having *Tucker* as Katherine's son and the non-story of Jill as Lauren's sister make me think that, in retrospect, maybe Jill/Katherine wasn't the worst option.
It is unfortunately too late for JC but I wish someone can some day sit down with JW and ask her how she truly felt about the storyline and how she feels about it now. I know both of them gushed in the press at the time but it is hard to know what is PR and truly-held beliefs AND whether the excitement of having a frontburner storyline then changed how they think about it looking back on it.
 

On 12/28/2021 at 10:00 AM, Liberty City said:

LOVEEE! Mike was excellent and Edward J. Scott was awesome as executive producer.

It's a shame that Ed Scott didn't work out as EP at DAYS.  He was probably their last shot at turning things around.

I still say they could have said Bill Foster had had an extramarital affair and that he brought home their daughter (Jill) to Liz after her bio mom either died or skipped town.  That way, Jill remains (or goes back to being) a Foster.  But, that ship has sailed.

31 minutes ago, Khan said:

It's a shame that Ed Scott didn't work out as EP at DAYS.  He was probably their last shot at turning things around.

It genuinely is. But, I also liked Greg Meng. The main problem is Ken Corday at this point.

13 hours ago, FrenchBug82 said:

Man, ain't that the truth. I don't want to be too negative on Amelia Heinle because I don't think all the problems with current-day Victoria are only on her but I watched the following scene two hours ago out of a random YT suggestion and I swear that HT is giving me in three minutes more range of acting that AH has given me throughout 2021. And for a storyline that didn't even revolve around her character

 

It doesn't help that when they gave Victoria her son with JT they robbed her of any edge she had prior.

1 hour ago, BoldRestless said:

I don't disagree with you. I've always thought that storyline was bad writing in terms of the overall decision, but well-written as a storyline. It was entertaining and suspenseful. I wanted to know what happened next (even though it was a stupid idea). I feel the same way about Cassie and John's deaths. Bad choices but well executed stories. 

 

While I was definitely against the idea of making Jill & Kay mother and daughter, it did make SOME sense in the soap way. I remember when I read around that time in one of the magazines that Jill actually had been married to Brock, but the marriage was never consummated, and thinking wow. I'm not saying that Bill Bell had that in mind, but it was interesting to know that, like an Easter egg from the past that somehow kept this mother/daughter storyline open as a possibility. The other thing was why did these two keep getting pulled towards each other for all these years despite being such bitter rivals? It made sense that it was Derek, then Phillip III, then fighting against Nina, then Rex, but by the mid-90s most of those ties were not that strong. And yet, when Keith Dennison dumps Jill, Kay for some strange reason asks her to move in, and even more strangely Jill agrees despite having plenty of money. Of course it was a setup for Jill to find the will and take over the mansion, but still, it felt like one of those little hints along the way that maybe there was something more to the relationship (either a lesbian attraction on Kay's part or long lost child, lol). 

 

The retcon would have been decent if not for it being mixed up in all of that Cane pretending to be Phillip and Phillip returning from the dead nonsense (all so that Nina could seen over Zoom "in Australia while visiting Phillip" except he is always in the other room!). I thought the Marge redux was stupid at the time but now I think of it as one of the last good Y&R stories. Kathering being poor and falling in love with Murphy, remembering who she was and fighting to take back her place in GC. The DNA test showing she's not Jill's mother and therefore apparently not Katherine, and Jill thinking she's a scammer until they finally realize Kay's DNA matches Brock's and it's Jill who is not related, and Jill lashing out in jealousy, saying that Kay always treated Nikki as her daughter. And at that very moment Mac coming home as Billy was marrying Chloe and realizing they weren't related (and with decent actors in all these roles at the time). That was good soap stuff in hindsight.

 

Lauren and Jill being sisters is still the case but seems to have been completely forgotten about to the point that Lauren wasn't even invited to Chance's wedding despite being Jill's only family in town.

I appreciate the work JW and JC did to make it work and there definitely was really compelling drama that first year and don’t forget that Ashley Bashioum returned as Mac just a mere nine months later she was absolutely wonderful as a matured Mac coming back and coming to terms with everything while focusing on the quirky crew that was Daniel and Kevin. Plus I liked the initial tale of Arthur Hendricks coming to town, the later crap about his mysterious step son and dead wife was just bad soap. 
 

I believe what irked me the most during those days was Jill always calling Katherine “oh mother!” Even if they were mother/daughter it just rang so false. 
 

I could have bought Cane as Phillip if the show had actually stuck with it. DG actually had some really nice sparks with TC and both are are very close in age it would have been nice if Cane and Nina developed a relationship as Cane sought out to learn about Phillip III, bond with Chance all the while causing conflict because Jill doesn’t want another son with Nina while Cane encouraged Chance to go after Kate/Chloe much to everyone else’s chargin.

As bad as the retcons were, undoing them caused even more considerable damage. The one good thing I thought came out of it was making Devon Katherine’s grandson but only because Devon finally became relevant again after being obscured for most of 2007-2011. 
 

Jill Fenmore Atkinson who? 🙃 I don’t recall Jill and Lauren interacting at all for several years now and the closing credits nowadays always refer back to her as Jill Abbott. 

The bigger problem with Jill/Katherine being mother/daughter was that the show wanted them to get along. So now Kay tries hard to make it work and Jill is a grumpus. Making them related should only have fueled their anger and hatred more and ignited a bigger battle between them. Otherwise what was the point? To me Jack Smith was one of those "That would be so cool" kinda guys, but he had no foresight, so he made story decisions that had idiotic or no follow through.

LML and MAB were "This looks good on paper" types, but they had zero idea how to execute any of their stories properly. None of them had any real respect for the show and its characters and were only feeding their (and certain actors) egos. They didn't love Y&R the way Bell did. 

Edited December 29, 20213 yr by will81

6 hours ago, FrenchBug82 said:

It is unfortunately too late for JC but I wish someone can some day sit down with JW and ask her how she truly felt about the storyline and how she feels about it now.

Jeanne definitely spoke out that she hated the story.

 

5 hours ago, soapfan770 said:

The one good thing I thought came out of it was making Devon Katherine’s grandson but only because Devon finally became relevant again after being obscured for most of 2007-2011. 

Making Devon Katherine's grandson was adding insult to injury. It was just the culmination of one misjudged story decision after another.

Having Devon as a billionaire is a story dead end.

6 hours ago, Khan said:

I still say they could have said Bill Foster had had an extramarital affair and that he brought home their daughter (Jill) to Liz after her bio mom either died or skipped town.  That way, Jill remains (or goes back to being) a Foster.  But, that ship has sailed.

I proposed the same outcome years ago. 

And Katherine discovered her daughter became a nun and devoted herself to good works before dying.

That would have wrapped up that story for good.

Instead we had Tucker, who happened to be Katherine's son, and happened to have an affair with Harmony, who gave birth to Devon, who happened to be adopted by Neil etc

16 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

 

Making Devon Katherine's grandson was adding insult to injury. It was just the culmination of one misjudged story decision after another.

Having Devon as a billionaire is a story dead end.

Like I said it at least got Devon screen time. Sure Bryton has never been a strong actor but Devon and Roxy’s off screen romance and sleeping with Aunt Tyra were even more insulting and was a real dead end. Bryton only appeared in 20 episodes in 2010 as a contract player too. 

22 minutes ago, soapfan770 said:

Bryton only appeared in 20 episodes in 2010 as a contract player too. 

Devon was definitely an afterthought at that time.'

Very strange. Maybe that's when he should have been recast with a more charismatic and sexy actor.

I like Bryton-he seems a nice guy, and his acting is OK but Devon comes across as so bland.

 

Has Y&R had a Black male character that has had any dynamism in the past decade? Fifteen years? 

1 hour ago, soapfan770 said:

Like I said it at least got Devon screen time. Sure Bryton has never been a strong actor but Devon and Roxy’s off screen romance and sleeping with Aunt Tyra were even more insulting and was a real dead end. Bryton only appeared in 20 episodes in 2010 as a contract player too. 

Really?? I knew he didn’t appear that much under MAB (remember her infamous, “we’re gonna get that black story Up and Pumping”!! Quote.) but I didn’t realize he was only on those many times. His screen time got progressively more after 2012 especially once Hilary arrived. 

10 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Has Y&R had a Black male character that has had any dynamism in the past decade? Fifteen years? 

Well, Darius McCrary's Malcolm was pretty dynamic making all those sandwiches.   

 

1 hour ago, soapfan770 said:

Sure Bryton has never been a strong actor but Devon and Roxy’s off screen romance and sleeping with Aunt Tyra were even more insulting and was a real dead end. 

Devon sleeping with Tyra.  Lawd.  Even Bill Bell would have recoiled in horror from that plot twist, I think, and he was the guy who often had siblings falling for each other!

Edited December 30, 20213 yr by Khan

5 minutes ago, YRfan23 said:

Really?? I knew he didn’t appear that much under MAB (remember her infamous, “we’re gonna get that black story Up and Pumping”!! Quote.) but I didn’t realize he was only on those many times. His screen time got progressively more after 2012 especially once Hilary arrived. 

 

1 minute ago, Khan said:

Well, Darius McCrary's Malcolm was pretty dynamic making all those sandwiches.   

🤣🤣🤣🤣😂🤣

 

Both MAB “up and pumping” quote and Eddie Winslow  always making sandwiches gave me a flashback to all those Y&R potpourri threads we had back in the day circa 2010 here at SON. 

9 minutes ago, soapfan770 said:

 

🤣🤣🤣🤣😂🤣

 

Both MAB “up and pumping” quote and Eddie Winslow  always making sandwiches gave me a flashback to all those Y&R potpourri threads we had back in the day circa 2010 here at SON. 

Remember that casting call for Sophia which read like a checklist of every stereotype of Black American females? Was that also making the threads back then?

Edited December 30, 20213 yr by kalbir