The Politics Thread

[marceline]

I'm continually amazed at how often Americans want to keep sending our volunteer military to war. 

[DramatistDreamer]

 

Well, let me see... the Reagan administration helped arm and train the mujahedeen to fight against the Soviets, unbeknownst to the U.S. it was helping to train a young Osama bin Laden and a band of some other volunteer fighters who would eventually be known as Al Qaeda.

 

And even though Trump's faulty logic likes to blame Hillary and Obama for ISIS, we know that the first ISIS masterminds sprang out from among the detainees held at Gitmo, which was an American invention during the Iraq war.

 

People like to oversimplify these complex situations. The fact of the matter is that sadly, there were already jihadists lurking among rebel groups and Obama was reluctant to arm and train them for that sole purpose and has stated it repeatedly.  He stated that again yesterday in his news conference, as well as the knowledge that Americans were fatigued of war and did not have the appetite for another lengthy, complex occupation in yet another Middle Eastern country. Even in the best case scenario, fostering a diplomatic solution where someone like Asaad is concerned would require intricate and elaborate use of diplomatic and likely military resources and yes, lots of money, time, effort and personnel and probably more loss of life.

 

Anyone who hasn't read How To Win a Cosmic War by Iranian-American author Reza Aslan should really do so. In it, he gives such a great understanding of why it is useless to engage in these battles in the Middle East. The only way to win is by not being drawn into fight in the first place. You are dealing with cultures who will fight for a hundred years if necessary, kill hundreds, thousands of men, women and children while still championing the righteousness of their cause. How do you fight that?  And in Syria, the sad reality is that both sides-- the government and the rebels have knowingly killed men, women and children while still insisting in the righteousness of their cause.

 

I agree that with @Juliajms that taking in refugees would have been the most humane thing the U.S. could've done but many of us refused because we don't truly want to commit ourselves to possibly helping people longterm if it inconveniences us.  We have been fooled into thinking that there is a "quick and dirty" solution that can be easily attained with military might and no-fly zones.

Edited December 18, 2016 by DramatistDreamer

[GMac]

 

This.  

 

The only way to have stopped Assad would have been a massive international coalition.  It would have been a long and dirty impossible war.

 

[Juliajms]

I think the only way I might be in tune with our country's zeitgeist is in thinking that we need to stay out of other people's wars.  It certainly is sad when you come upon the limits of your country's power and realize you can't save everyone. Not even when many of those people are little children because if we had become involved a lot of people still would have died.  We have to start learning our limits and stop making the same mistakes over and over.  The day may come when we do have to do battle with Russia, but we don't have to do it over Syria.

[GMac]

 

IA, @Juliajms

 

The pictures out of Syria are so sad, but our military can't be everywhere, all the time.  If there were a unilateral, committed force then maybe it would have made a difference.  

 

The right's refusal to take refugees will be judged more harshly IMO

 

[Juliajms]

I agree that history will judge The United States for not taking in more refugees.

 

Another thing is Israel tried to bomb a bunker they thought Assad was hiding in a few weeks ago. You have to wonder if the Obama administration had a hand in that.

[quartermainefan]

 

But that is what conservatives said in 1939, leaving England to fight alone by 1940.  Roosevelt did an end run around public opinion  and the world was better for it.   Being the USA can suck because the weight of the world is on the president's shoulders, but as they say in spider-man "with great power comes great responsibility".

[Juliajms]

And that was what many liberals said when it came to Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan and they were right. The Syrian civil war is nothing like World War 2, it's a lot more like the last three pointless, unwinnable wars. Hell, I guess it's four if you count Korea.   The weight of the world is on the United States if we continue to be arrogant enough to think it's out place to stick our nose into ever regional skirmish that comes along. That hasn't worked out so well for us over the last 60 years and I don't see that anyone has been better for it, including the people we were supposedly trying to help.  It's time to stop making the same mistakes.

[DRW50]

I do agree with those who say we failed our basic responsibility in not letting in more Syrian refugees. Not only did we refuse to let many in, we made it clear that we saw them as scum and dangerous criminals, stigmatizing those few who were let in. And I imagine the number will trickle even further now - for any refugee that doesn't have a pretty, white face. And even many of those if they don't have enough cash. 

 

Countries like Germany clearly had no idea what they were doing with refugees, but others like Canada got the balance right. 

 

As for being involved in Syria, Democrats and Republicans alike have proven in the last 15 years they have no idea what they are doing in these countries. "Regime change" and "liberation" and other fancy words that make old warmongers feel warm and cozy and do little for the people actually being oppressed. They are often just oppressed by someone new and we are nowhere around to help. I saw a bit of Samantha Power shaming Russia and Assad for Aleppo, and that Russian UN guy essentially said she had no room to speak because of our track record. And sadly, he was right. I think much of the right wing claims of America's impotence to the world were macho hysteria from people stuck in the '50s, but they aren't always wrong. For much of the last 8 years in foreign policy, we tried to be everything while also trying to be nothing. We failed on both counts. 

Edited December 18, 2016 by DRW50

[GMac]

 

On point, Julia, and so true.  Nothing good has come from these wars. 

 

[DramatistDreamer]

Also with WWII, there was a genuine coalition of countries on the Alliance side with soldiers from pretty much every part of the global volunteering to fight: the U.K.- along with soldiers from their colonies in Canada, the Caribbean, India and African countries like Kenya fighting in the RAF and the military. France and lest we forget, Russia did the bulk of the fighting (and dying) in Eastern Europe where it led the fight against the Nazi army, where Russia held the line to try to stop incursions and reverse occupations in Poland, Czechoslovakia, what is now the Ukraine, etc.

 

The "coalition of the willing" that relies mainly on the U.S. (and maybe some in Great Britain) to do the bulk of the fighting, is not a true alliance. None of the wars since WWII has resembled anything close to the Alliances formed during WWII.

Of course, if you go by the logic of the neocons, one could claim that, during WWII, the U.S. technically "led from behind" since they joined the War effort so late.

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Edited December 18, 2016 by DramatistDreamer

[Khan]

 

Yep.

 

IIRC -- and granted, I wasn't alive back then; and what I know, I learned at one of those race-mixing, God-hating, icky-poo public schools certain people hate nowadays -- but the U.S. government actually wanted to stay out of WWII at first.  We became involved only after the Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbor.

 

As usual, I agree with y'all: images and sounds coming out of Aleppo are saddening and terrifying.  However, short of allowing more refugees into our borders (which we are clearly not going to do at this point), I don't know what more we could do or should have done to help them.  

 

Some wars, you just can't win; and some people, you just can't help.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Khan

[Roman]

Not only are you right about that (millions of americans felt since the war was happening in Europe it was a European problem) many feel and there is evidence to back up the claim that FDR KNEW the Japanese were about to attack a USA military base and let it happen so the USA could join the war effort. "thousands of lives for the safety of millions more", even though roughly millions upon millions died in that war because of decisions made by a select few. I also believe that WWII is held up like it is because, even with nuance, the villains and heroes were on one side or the other (even with the atrocities committed by both sides). Even when Pres. Obama seemed to have lessoned Russia and Putin's influence, that disappointed me. I asked myself "what about the Soviets when they got run out of Afghanistan? or the USA when they were run out by North Vietnam?" many in positions of political power continue to make the mistake thinking david still can't slay Goliath.....and look at what history has taught us? 

[DramatistDreamer]

 

 

Did you watch his news conference on Friday? That's not at all the sentiment that I got while watching. He seemed to indicate that while there was no actual vote tampering, that Russia had definitively interfered with the electoral process.  He also said that the media's constant focus on e-mails that although embarrassing, were neither illegal nor inethical, instead of focusing on issues that were tantamount to the American public, had done a disservice to the public. He also felt the Clinton had been treated unfairly by the news coverage.

He definitely pointed a finger at Russia though. He said he even talked to Putin about it at a summit they both attending months ago. 

[Roman]

Oh I saw it. what I'm saying is....I hope he is not diminishing Putin's influence not just in our elections, but around the world. I do agree with you though on the other aspects...I guess we saw it a bit differently. I just don't want him to make that mistake....Lord knows the person who is taking his place in a month it not the person who should be trusetd with a fountain pen, much less the codes.