One Life to Live OLTL: The Prospect Park Era (old production thread)

[Vee]

Alright, let's fact-check. The issue wasn't the shows, it was the upper management. The creative side, I felt, was solid, especially at AMC. However low their budgets were, the productions looked and were all-over produced better than any soap I've watched in the last five or six years. So that's not an issue, AFAIC. They promoted the shows on Hulu and on television, but they often eschewed the soap press which was in some ways a mistake, if only because it made it personal for some of those people.

It's also not that they didn't make the numbers on Hulu, because AFAIK they did. It's not that they couldn't have succeeded on cable with more promotion, because they could've, and they were potentially viable on OWN with their numbers. What it really comes down to is the upper management above the soaps at PP not having the funds to continue and also, largely being deranged. Soaps are a big, big yearly investment no matter how many days or weeks or months they're on the air. They take huge cash that networks have and relatively few independent outfits do, especially ones run by very volatile people. That's the bottom line.

And Max, I'm sorry, but you're not objective and no one's making anything up by calling you on it. All you did for about two years running now was quietly monologue and make it personal just like this about why the ABC soaps don't deserve a shot at resurrection by virtue of how rude and dismissive you felt their fans were to CBS fans for simply - I don't know - talking about this process as it happened? Were we not supposed to talk about it or want it? To want it to happen when you couldn't have your soap back? I would love to see a CBS soap come back, I've made it clear how I feel about Guiding Light. But I don't have millions atop millions to mount that, and as a fan my first love is with the two shows I've watched for twenty years that are very near and dear to my heart and are currently in front of my field of vision. If that makes me cruel and dismissive to CBS fans, so be it. It doesn't, BTW, so you can get over that now.

I think the management at PP is full of crazies and shysters and I have no interest in defending them. I think these lawsuits are far beyond ridiculous at this point, although I do think ABC jerked them around to begin with. But I think the productions they mounted with the staffs they hired were very good - even OLTL, with its up and down story issues, looked and felt like a million bucks - and my interest, should they be picked up somewhere, is to see that internal quality maintained - as opposed to seeing them returned to the meat grinder of the same two or three guys and the same pool of floating, overworked breakdown writers or dialogue people looking for a pay raise. Whether they'd have to go back to ABC to do that or somewhere else, I don't know, but very few independent companies are going to be willing to make that kind of expenditure.

I'm really not sorry if it offends anyone's sensibilities if I have a hard time believing, at this point, that this is the last we'll hear of AMC or OLTL for at least the next five or ten years. I had thought that once before when they were first cancelled. I thought they'd be gone for a good while, and I was wrong. In the last year the properties have been in demand, been contested by two companies, and then back both broadcasting and on television. I never saw that coming so soon. And I think there's a lot of interest, and I'm curious to see what happens. That doesn't mean I've rubber-stamped the lunatics running the house at Prospect Park, but it does mean I liked their product, which I divorce from the higher-ups. If other people can't, that's not my problem. And that doesn't change the value of these brands, which IMO is even more strong now than it was a few years ago.

All those puff pieces being written are correct, IMO: Soaps are "back" in some fashion. People are recognizing that most of what's on in nighttime - Scandal, Revenge, even crap like that horrible Toni Collette show - is a soap by another name. The problem is that both the people who are actually running soaps and the people who want to be running soaps don't know how to handle that or deal with that.

In the case of PP, they certainly didn't know what it took to maintain the kind of freight train that a soap is once it's running. They modernized the aesthetic and the vibe of the shows, they brought in talented people in front of and behind the camera, but they couldn't handle the infrastructure. And when they spurned the clannish, cloistered soap press, most of the soap press responded by freezing the strangers from L.A. out. It didn't help that at least a couple of those strangers were totally nuts.

As for the other soaps it's more complex. At shows like Y&R, the old, tired hacks who have been in this game a long time don't know or perhaps also don't have the inclination to harness the new popular sentiment about soaps, to begin to try and revive the shows they're working on - JFP was obviously brought in to drown Bill Bell's crown jewel in a bathtub and then close it out. At GH you have two guys who have spent the better part of their ascendency in daytime in constant crisis mode on the bubble of cancellation, and have never gotten to take a breath or brought someone with fresh eyes in to shoulder the load creatively and get perspective; they're also likely being fed a line of bull, IMO, from the new management at ABC about their future commitment to GH on the network as opposed to on a future streaming service. They don't know which way to look or how. At DAYS and B&B they're off in their own little hermetically-sealed worlds, and I don't think anyone behind the camera at DAYS can afford to buy Marlena Evans a pack of Lucky's, onscreen that is.

No one at the four network soaps is dealing with this on a larger scale because no one knows how, and likely part of that is because their networks don't know how either, don't know what to think, haven't made a decision or a commitment. Most of these shows have been living in crisis mode or preparing the funeral dirge since before I left college. It seems as though so many of these people are simply looking to get another job somewhere, anywhere, ride the show into cancellation, get as much money as they can and then get out, either because they've grown to resent daytime or because they can see the future they've been told was coming since Another World and are being conscientious, or because they've done everything they can do and are just burnt out.

The point I'm trying to make, if there is a point, is that it's going to take more than the same old mindsets or business as usual to utilize this kind of moment as it happens. I just don't think there's anyone at the networks that is doing so. Which is why we can say what we want to about PP's higher management - I could go on for hours about some of those guys - but the one thing I felt PP got right was getting good production teams together, modernizing the shows, and producing something that felt new and current, that felt fresh, that was good and was actually proud to be a soap opera again.

These teams rode this popular wave because they weren't just coming at it from years of exhaustion and frustration from working inside the pre-existing apparatus. It honestly felt new. And that's what it's going to take for soaps, but I don't think the networks are ready to invest in that or let anyone else (who's sane, that is) invest in that. And I'm not sure the soap press is ready for that, either, especially not when I have to hear Carolyn Hinsey hector someone about the horrors of nightclub scenes when every second or third drama on primetime has sex, drugs and rock 'n roll. And I'm not sure we're ready to invest in that. But I hope someone does, and that when or if they do they have a decent credit score and are not in any way medicated.

Please do not quote or "me too" or +1 my post, because I'll delete it if that happens. I'm tired of being lumped in with certain people.

[Max]

I am not at all surprised that you have responded in this way. I see that you gave me zero credit for waiting a good deal of time to say anything on the matter (and let people have time mourn their soaps). But then again, I am not one who enjoys gloating while others are miserable; this, of course, occurred last year when you posted--one day after the election--a cartoon/parody of Terminator 2 showing Paul Ryan lowering Mitt Romney into a pit of molten lava. (And when I proceeded to politely call you out on this matter, you really became childish by uttering the T2 line "I understand why you cry, but it is something I can never do.")

I am sorry I subsequently lost my temper with you, but I cannot understand how one can be so mean and vicious (in victory). To this day, you have never apologized for your conduct.

Addressing the specifics of what you said, I never stated that GL and ATWT deserved to be revived. What I thought was unfair was that the outcry over the AMC/OLTL cancellations was so over-the-top (e.g., purchasing Hoovers), especially in comparison to the almost nothing that the P&G soaps got. But--and this may surprise you--I should have gotten over it much sooner. You see, while it's all subjective as to which soaps are better, it is an objective fact that AMC/OLTL are more popular than GL/ATWT. (And, of course, that was the reason why the outcry was so much greater.) It hurt my pride, but it is just the way it is. Now, when GH and DOOL are cancelled, that outcry will be so much greater than the outcry from the cancellation of the Nixon soaps (simply because GH and DOOL are more popular).

I don't pretend to be objective when it comes to which soaps I prefer, but I was most definitely objective when I predicted that PP's AMC/OLTL venture would fail. I clearly made my points at the time (which were the same points I made in my post above) as to why the venture would fail, but there were some (not just you) who just assumed that I could not be objective on such a judgment (because of my hurt feelings over the lack of empathy that accompanied the P&G soap cancellations). Thus, instead of a thoughtful response to my arguments, such folks immediately discounted me as a "disgruntled P&G soap viewer."

Had PP revived GL/ATWT instead of AMC/OLTL, I would have predicted failure as well (for the very same reasons). For those of you who have a hard time actually believing that, remember that I was one of the few Republicans who actually predicted that Romney would lose (because it was pretty obvious, if you looked at the swing state polls). While I obviously have personal biases, I am one who never lets them get in the way of making an objective prediction.

[dragonflies]

Max is not the first person that comes to mind when calling someone out for not being objective many of us can say that, not even you

​Max is not one of the people who had his head so far up PPs butt, far from it

[Vee]

As always, dragonflies, you are saying both everything and nothing at all. What does this mean? Is my head up someone's butt? Is yours? Are we all deeply wedged up butts? Is no one? What does it all mean? You are the Sphinx. You are alpha and omega.

The only thing consistent about your point of view is its complete lack of consistency. If you ever have anything substantive to say about this topic, please let us all know seven days in advance so we can adequately prepare emotionally.

Max, OTOH, at least you have a point and stick to it. I may find it utterly wrongheaded but I understand what the hell you are talking about. I don't think any of us believed this venture was a surefire success, but that's a different issue. Debating the nuances of how and why they failed - which I chalk up to higher management, not the execution of the shows or their value as brands - is another argument which I am always welcome to have with someone like you whose thought process I can follow. And no, I will not apologize for re-posting someone else's GIF of Mitt Romney's head pasted onto the Terminator. That's not going to happen.

[Max]

Dragonflies, thank you so much for what you said about me. Please don't let Vee's nastiness get under your skin (as I made the mistake of doing), because it may result in an action (e.g., the loss of one's cool) that will later be deeply regrettable.

SFK, I really appreciate this excellent post, and it deserves a thorough response.

I honestly could never figure out exactly who PP wanted its target audience to be. I personally thought the most logical target audience should have been long-time fans of AMC & OLTL. (But the problem here is that--because many of these viewers were over 50--getting them to switch to the internet was always going to be such a challenge.) Perhaps PP wanted to attract a younger set of viewers, but the best way to have done so would be to sadly ditch the names AMC and OLTL and create new spinoffs. (And, as you suggested, such an endeavor obviously would not appeal to most loyal AMC & OLTL fans.)

In terms of marketing, PP was pretty powerless from the beginning. The advertising budget would have to be so massive as to allow constant commercials to run on ABC (throughout morning, daytime, and primetime) promoting these shows and telling former viewers that AMC and OLTL were now available online. (And just the fact that ABC did almost nothing to help these two soaps also played an important role in dooming the project from the start.)

In short, I just don't think that any program called AMC or OLTL (or any show that has any traditional soap name, for that matter) can successfully jump to the internet (after having been off the air), while attempting to appeal to both long time fans and young viewers. If AMC and OLTL have any chance to be revived, the only way I see that happening is by having them return to ABC--given that television still remains the only way to reach a broad target audience--as 30 minute soaps (and collectively fill the timeslot that "Katie" will soon vacate). Of course, there is realistically little chance of this happening, and even if it does, their chance for success is still very slim (simply because casual soap watchers are creatures of habit, and the Nixon soaps have been off television for years).

I realize that these shows were successful in terms of doing well on the iTunes and Hulu charts (at least in AMC's case), but I have a hard time believing that this amounted to any serious financial success. Obviously I wasn't privy to any financial information, but I don't think it is necessary: if this venture was making a healthy profit, Season 2 (for both shows) would be going forward, and PP would stop making these frivolous lawsuits. Whatever success has occurred on iTunes and Hulu must be telling only a portion of the story, because truly successful ventures don't have all these problems.

While I never thought that the quality of the PP soaps was great, I do think that the stories were better than the final ABC years for both soaps. I agree with SFK that quality was not what killed these shows (and apologize if I gave that impression); what killed this project were the objective things such as lack of promotion, lack of budget, the difficulty of getting older viewers to watch on the internet, and the difficulty of reviving shows that had been off the air.

[RoseVioletDaisy]

I think that the intention was to appeal to younger viewers who had little or no previous connection to the shows. That was the impression I got from the style of the banner ads and commercials running on the teen and young adult oriented CW. The veteran characters were intended to appeal to older viewers to get the initial numbers up but apparently the plan was to phase legacy characters out over time if their younger viewership was high enough to sustain the shows. I think PP's plans were initially skewed by their interest in RC's OLTL over AMC. Due to the internet buzz over RC's OLTL in 2011, PP was under the impression that their style was the only way to go. This is proven by the fact that in the initial attempt to produce the shows they spent almost all of their time and energy on signing cast and crew of OLTL and didn't even bother with AMC for the most part because they saw it as the old show whose viewers wouldn't even know how to follow online. I think the research they did after the intital attempt failed showed them that they were wrong and that OLTL's audience was only marginally younger and more "hip".

PP was certainly hamstrung by not having enough money to advertise broadly but even if they had the money, ABC refused to run their ads. The PR firm they hired to market the shows was a reputable and successful one but they had no experience with online projects or digital advertising and thus put their marketing dollars in the wrong places, like billboards on Los Angeles freeways. Online advertising is whole different animal. PP needed to hire an agency with both TV and online departments who would work together to create a strategy to maximize retention of the TV audience because that was PP's biggest problem: most of the TV audience didn't follow the shows online. In order to make the financials work, PP needed to retain 10% of the TV audience (about 250,000 viewers). They got 5%, with their viewership ranging from 120,000-150,000 depending on the week. That difference meant that PP only got $5,000 per ad from Hulu instead of the $10,000 per ad they needed to make money. As for iTunes, the shows ranked fairly high on most of their release days but bear in mind that Apple keeps 30% of all sales revenue as a content hosting fee. Almost all video content on Hulu and iTunes has a primary revenue stream and what they make there just adds to it. PP needed to make all their money there and they just couldn't make enough with the audience they had. And that's with Hulu paying content providers the highest CPM rate of any major streaming service. If they'd gone with Youtube, they would've only made $3,500 per ad.

Ultimately it was a huge gamble for PP, it didn't pay off, and there's no telling what their future is. The only way PP was able to raise money to produce the shows in the first place was to create and sell a block of private stock in the company to ABRY Partners, who Jeff Kwatinetz is now suing, so they gave up a portion of ownership in their own company to get the money to make these shows. According to PP's stock sale agreement with ABRY, if PP halts production for longer than 12 months ABRY can assign the license to the shows to another group of their choosing and PP must comply, with PP only keeping the rights to the episodes they've already filmed. If they can't restart production, it was all for naught in the end, at least for PP.

I agree with pretty much everything here. I think the biggest problem was the time gap between the TV finales and the online premieres, with poor marketing choices being a close second. Most soap fans are creatures of habit. If the habit is broken, you lose the fan. The networks learned that with the OJ trial. Hundreds of thousands of soap viewers got out of the habit during the trial and just never went back.

[Max]

Rose, thanks so much for your most insightful post.

[cassadine1991]

Erika Slezak talks OLTL in her new holiday letter

http://michaelfairmansoaps.com/news/erika-slezak-posts-annual-holiday-letter-shares-heartfelt-words-on-turbulent-times-of-revivals-of-oltl-amc/2013/12/09/

[Khan]

That's what I love and miss about RVD (who I "know" from the old GL Buzz board): her posts give you PLENTY of food for thought.

[allmc2008]

Happy Birthday Agnes Nixon!!

[allmc2008]

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[Winchester91]

Black Agnes, creator of our Lord and Savior Jesse Hubbard and that Harlot Angie? It's her birthday? I didn't even notice.

[CBRVA83]

I heard that Josh Kelly (ex-Cutter, OLTL) did an interview for SOD in its newest issue. Can anyone on here who has the newest copy of SOD please tell me what he had to say in that interview about PP, OLTL, and what he's up to nowadays?

[Antoyne]

Why don't you just obsessively Facebook him? It seemed to be your favorite hobby in the past.

[CBRVA83]

Well, I guess it was a mistake to post on this board if I'm going to be insulted by other posters on here!