I think Heather Ratrray has not gotten her dues in the annals of ATWT history.  I don't want to disrespect Martha, but if you close your eyes and imagine a socialite who was lusted after by everyone from farm boys to Italian royalty you could see someone who looked like Heather.  Martha was fine as a teen, and she played the angst of finding out the secrets of her conception very well, but Heather's Lily was more mature and worldly.  She was believable in a corporate setting while Martha often looked as if she was playing dress up.  And while Martha's Lily was understandably well liked by everyone in town. Heather's Lily made more sense as a woman who was the object of obsession both of her female romantic rivals and the men who wanted to possess her. 

Upon reflection, I would go as far as saying that she is a perfect example of the idea that soap fans are sometimes more upset about change than realistic about how re-casting can be an opportunity to evolve a character. 

Edited June 13, 20223 yr by j swift

57 minutes ago, j swift said:

I think Heather Ratrray has not gotten her dues in the annals of ATWT history.  I don't want to disrespect Martha, but if you close your eyes and imagine a socialite who was lusted after by everyone from farm boys to Italian royalty you could see someone who looked like Heather.  Martha was fine as a teen, and she played the angst of finding out the secrets of her conception very well, but Heather's Lily was more mature and worldly.  She was believable in a corporate setting while Martha often looked as if she was playing dress up.  And while Martha's Lily was understandably well liked by everyone in town. Heather's Lily made more sense as a woman who was the object of obsession both of her female romantic rivals and the men who wanted to possess her. 

Upon reflection, I would go as far as saying that she is a perfect example of the idea that soap fans are sometimes more upset about change than realistic about how re-casting can be an opportunity to evolve a character. 

I couldn't say it any better, i wish she stayed on longer, and i knew she would've worked beautifully, Also i'm so glad to realize that Angel is no one but Alice Haining the Other AMC Lisa from the 1980's i knew from the moment i preferred her over Jamie Lunar she was an ideal vixen and that episode proves it

@Soapsuds@Broderick@DramatistDreamer@soapfan770@victoria foxton@Vee@Mitch64

@j swift @Joseph

 

A  January 1991 episode, only incomplete due to a press conference on Desert Storm.

Early 1991 episodes seem hard to come by, and this one turned out to be momentous, as a huge  showdown  between Angel and Henry Lange is packed  into the same timeframe as a deeply sad divorce proceeding with John and Lucinda (who only very reluctantly lets go after John makes it clear why nothing, including a final night of passion, will lead him to  stay with her). Liz Hubbard is often accused of OTT performances, but this is all very tender work from her, heartbreak dangling from the sleeve. 

Wonderful performances from Michael David Morrison (reminding yet again why he was the  only one  who could inhabit Caleb), Alice Haining and James Rehborn in extremely difficult to watch material. The general view of how staid the P&G soaps were, lacking the social issues tag of  Agnes Nixon or Bill Bell works, along with this story not involving any "big" characters (due to Martha's Lily being gone at the time) tends  to obscure just how daring the story was, as this episode alone  shows. A numb and helpless Lily and Holden, Caleb being haunted by Angel aborting "his" child (a child actually conceived by her rapist father), a terrified Angel being pursued and gaslit by said father as her self-loathing brother Barclay is passed out drunk, unable to hear her pleas - incredibly harrowing material,  even more now  than at the time. 

For some slim  comic relief in Marland's very dark final  years, you have a fun bitchfest with Lisa and Susan (Lisa clearly happy to fill in for Lucinda during her sojourn from Oakdale). 

https://archive.org/details/l-1-t-2-v-8-9-soap-operas-guiding-light-as-the-world-turns-jan.-1991

27 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

@Soapsuds@Broderick@DramatistDreamer@soapfan770@victoria foxton@Vee@Mitch64

@j swift @Joseph

 

A  January 1991 episode, only incomplete due to a press conference on Desert Storm.

Early 1991 episodes seem hard to come by, and this one turned out to be momentous, as a huge  showdown  between Angel and Henry Lange is packed  into the same timeframe as a deeply sad divorce proceeding with John and Lucinda (who only very reluctantly lets go after John makes it clear why nothing, including a final night of passion, will lead him to  stay with her). Liz Hubbard is often accused of OTT performances, but this is all very tender work from her, heartbreak dangling from the sleeve. 

Wonderful performances from Michael David Morrison (reminding yet again why he was the  only one  who could inhabit Caleb), Alice Haining and James Rehborn in extremely difficult to watch material. The general view of how staid the P&G soaps were, lacking the social issues tag of  Agnes Nixon or Bill Bell works, along with this story not involving any "big" characters (due to Martha's Lily being gone at the time) tends  to obscure just how daring the story was, as this episode alone  shows. A numb and helpless Lily and Holden, Caleb being haunted by Angel aborting "his" child (a child actually conceived by her rapist father), a terrified Angel being pursued and gaslit by said father as her self-loathing brother Barclay is passed out drunk, unable to hear her pleas - incredibly harrowing material,  even more now  than at the time. 

For some slim  comic relief in Marland's very dark final  years, you have a fun bitchfest with Lisa and Susan (Lisa clearly happy to fill in for Lucinda during her sojourn from Oakdale). 

https://archive.org/details/l-1-t-2-v-8-9-soap-operas-guiding-light-as-the-world-turns-jan.-1991

Thanks for posting! 1991 was a great year for ATWT. Not only is ever scene interesting but you see so many vets in one episode. An episode like this makes me miss ATWT even more.

Thanks for this. My slow ride through 1986-onward continues through the pandemic, but I'm always willing to jump ahead and take a look at good stuff.

44 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

@Soapsuds@Broderick@DramatistDreamer@soapfan770@victoria foxton@Vee@Mitch64

@j swift @Joseph

 

The general view of how staid the P&G soaps were, lacking the social issues tag of  Agnes Nixon or Bill Bell works, along with this story not involving any "big" characters (due to Martha's Lily being gone at the time) tends  to obscure just how daring the story was, as this episode alone  shows. 

https://archive.org/details/l-1-t-2-v-8-9-soap-operas-guiding-light-as-the-world-turns-jan.-1991

Thank you for stating this! Unless people watch the lived experiences of these characters on a daily basis, they won’t understand that. In the Soaps thread, I mentioned how good a number of P&G soaps were at presenting taboo topics in the everyday. But because the performances tended toward the understated, it has been easy for some to dismiss them. ATWT often did have major characters in storylines that presented taboo topics. Susan and Dan in an open marriage during the 1970s?! When I saw an episode a few years ago…well, that one still blows my mind.

Also, thanks for posting this episode. I look forward to seeing it.

1 hour ago, DRW50 said:

For some slim  comic relief in Marland's very dark final  years, you have a fun bitchfest with Lisa and Susan (Lisa clearly happy to fill in for Lucinda during her sojourn from Oakdale). 

Thank for posting! Great acting, great writing and very, very unpleasant and not fun....(just watching the bit of GL during that time against this gloomy town I can see why GL became my fave soap at the time.) Not interested in watching the fall out of a woman (who made no lasting impact on Oakdale) deal with the after effects of aborting the child created from incestuous rape! Kudos for the network for allowing this material to hit the air.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

Thank for posting! Great acting, great writing and very, very unpleasant and not fun....(just watching the bit of GL during that time against this gloomy town I can see why GL became my fave soap at the time.) Not interested in watching the fall out of a woman (who made no lasting impact on Oakdale) deal with the after effects of aborting the child created from incestuous rape! Kudos for the network for allowing this material to hit the air.

 

 

Most of the viewers disagreed with you at that time. ATWT was higher in  the ratings than GL in 1991. 

January for which this clip of atwt is from...

 

@DRW50Thanks for the tag. That was a great write-up. I really liked GL and ATWT during this era.

Thanks for the episode. I have such a love hate feeling for that era of ATWT-the 90s -wonderful acting and great use of the cast but I felt so much of the joy was missing from Marland’s later stories. I totally have an agenda for one of my favorite characters (Lucinda). I hated that most of her stories became her losing -John, her company, Lily, Neal, always rejected- even Ambrose abandons her for Walsh Enterprises. Hated her falling all over herself for the likes of John Dixon. Divorce his boring a*& and go have some fun. 

32 minutes ago, lilyredd said:

Thanks for the episode. I have such a love hate feeling for that era of ATWT-the 90s -wonderful acting and great use of the cast but I felt so much of the joy was missing from Marland’s later stories. I totally have an agenda for one of my favorite characters (Lucinda). I hated that most of her stories became her losing -John, her company, Lily, Neal, always rejected- even Ambrose abandons her for Walsh Enterprises. Hated her falling all over herself for the likes of John Dixon. Divorce his boring a*& and go have some fun. 

I think Liz may have felt the same way, which might be why there are  moments of  her on the up, like Worldwide being such a success. I do agree that it was missing something for Lucinda to never really get a proper romance again post-John - Scott was never anything real, and then Marland passed. To be honest even if he had lived I  think Lucinda probably would have remained alone, as he seemed to work hard to phase out that more  passionate side of her.  

8 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I think Liz may have felt the same way, which might be why there are  moments of  her on the up, like Worldwide being such a success. I do agree that it was missing something for Lucinda to never really get a proper romance again post-John - Scott was never anything real, and then Marland passed. To be honest even if he had lived I  think Lucinda probably would have remained alone, as he seemed to work hard to phase out that more  passionate side of her.  

I agree. While I know how popular Marland is, I did not trust his writing and if he had lived I would not have been surprised if he wrote her out. 

2 hours ago, Soapsuds said:

Most of the viewers disagreed with you at that time. ATWT was higher in  the ratings than GL in 1991. 

January for which this clip of atwt is from...

 

I have no doubt..I was just giving my opinion..plus there were other factors involved with the ratings then just approving of the material. But IMO overall GL was more of an "enjoyable" watch..they had family, community, friends, mystery, business, love stories, some topical things, camp and of course, humor and just fun, which the at this time morose ATWT did not have.

Oh yes, and sex..GL had some good heated sex going on, which ATWT was too polite (or depressed) to show.

8 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

I have no doubt..I was just giving my opinion..plus there were other factors involved with the ratings then just approving of the material. But IMO overall GL was more of an "enjoyable" watch..they had family, community, friends, mystery, business, love stories, some topical things, camp and of course, humor and just fun, which the at this time morose ATWT did not have.

Oh yes, and sex..GL had some good heated sex going on, which ATWT was too polite (or depressed) to show.

I know this conversation has been discussed but ATWT was very dark in the early 90s and I find your perspective mirrors mine in some ways.  I think the politeness and lack of passion is another thing that hindered my enjoyment of those years. Like with a trial attorney having co-counsel during the trial is immensely helpful, Marland needed someone sharing head-writing duties.  

1 hour ago, lilyredd said:

I agree. While I know how popular Marland is, I did not trust his writing and if he had lived I would not have been surprised if he wrote her out. 

I was going to say he probably wouldn't have, but then he did write Liz out of  The Doctors...