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j swift

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  1. @Paul Raven I was thinking of exactly the same examples when I saw the title of the thread. The Frames became a core family and were represented through Frankie and Sharlene until the end of the show. Clarice is such an interesting case because she came on the scene as a supporting character, but wound up having not only her family (the Hobsons) but also her husband's family (the Ewings) built around her. It could be argued that at one period in the late 1970's to the early 1980's from her involvement in plots with Ada, Iris, Cecile, and Sally, she was the central hub of the show. Also, I appreciate the distinction you made between characters who were introduced as the first member of an already planned family, versus those whose family were created as after thoughts. The after thought families usually had more complex family trees to explain all of the long lost siblings, wives, and children who just happened to move to the same small town (e.g. Michael Hudson's clan).
  2. OK, am I being trolled (lol)? A couple of weeks ago I wrote a long post about the failure of repeat-named characters and got no support, and now there are two more examples in a different thread...
  3. I co-nominate Hope Williams (DAYS) and Laura Spencer (GH). Both women were wild teens. Laura was overwrought with emotion, she would have fainting spells when she found out that Leslie was her mother, and eventually she shot her mother's lover. Hope was kissing older boys, she was horrible to Julie, and she had to be sent to boarding school because she was getting into so much trouble at home. However, once they started dating the local bad boys in town (Luke and Bo respectively), they became damsels in distress, always in need of being saved from criminals, and frightened by the mere thought that their boyfriends would be exposed to danger. It got to the point where these two tough teens both began to be referred to as "princess" by their love interests. Although they both had a brief resurgence in the 90's when they founded their respective cosmetics companies, eventually they both subverted everything they always wanted as kids and became a sidekick to men who weren't nearly as complex or interesting, and would eventually abandon them. If 15-year-old Hope or Laura were able to predict the future and see what their lives would be like living in tiny homes in the same town that they were raised, I bet both of them would have gagged. Compare them to Julie (DAYS) or Raven (EDGE) who became partners with their husbands, solved crimes, and got to lead international lives filled with glamour. Those women never had to wear cop uniforms, or granny frocks, and they always occupied one of the largest homes in town.
  4. At the risk of expressing an opinion about a fictional town, has anyone discussed the need to defund the Salem PD? They can't solve a crime, international criminals live in their midst, and now a former detective (who was once an FBI agent) can't even protect his younger sister from crime. That town should put more funding into the Horton Center, (in order to educate the citizens about surprise pregnancies) and University Hospital (for their groundbreaking work on removing computer chips from brains), and less on their law enforcement officers. Also, after years of no contact with anyone from their former lives, Eric and Rafe left town at the drop of a hat once someone from their past showed up?
  5. Please forgive me in advance because I no longer watch daily and I mostly follow the story here and on blogs How did they write out the Hernandez family? I've completely missed how/why they left Salem and if the writers at the time left open the possibility of their return.
  6. I think there is an interesting new topic of discussion of actors who were cast because they were muses for certain writers or producers (i.e. Kevin McClatchy) Although her slap fight with Erica remains memorable, and this may be controverted, I would say that the repetition of the returned-past-lover/bitchy-romantic-antagonists on AMC (Barbara, Cynthia, Racquel, etc..) diminishes their icon status.
  7. I guess we can site DAYS Mike C Manning (Charlie) as the opposite of the trend of this discussion, a gay actor who was out in the press prior to being cast on a soap. He is a hopeful example of the liberation that gay visibility has brought to the acting profession.
  8. I'd love to know the economics of these types of stunts. Does he get a cut of the photos that are sold or is he playing the long game of keeping his name in the press to attract future casting agents?
  9. I wholeheartedly agree! I often don't have the patience to watch entire old episodes online, but this series is so entertaining because they distill the history into bite-sized pieces. The music and the editing make these addict-ably watchable. I also adore their annual reviews and longer character pieces. I am especially bemused by the titles that they gave to certain characters in the older profiles on the channel, such as Tangie Hill - The Brief Citizen.
  10. How did she allow herself to leave the house (let alone be filmed) in that wig?
  11. I don't know if we've already done a list of actors who were cast against type, but I would submit Susan Pratt to that list and this one. On GH she was Nurse Annie Logan, famous for being a virgin, Audrey's niece, and a Heather Webber antagonist. I would argue that any character cited in the General Hospi-tale rap deserves icon status (🎶 Jeff wants Annie for his wife - But he might have to wait all of his life - Cause good girls don't, and Annie won't - And you all know what I mean ). Later on GL she was Dr Claire Ramsey, famous for being the mother of Michelle, she deflowed of Rick, and she was part of the legondary Beirut quad with Fletcher, Ed, and Maureen. A similar saint to sinner casting was done for Nancy Frangione who went from butter wouldn't melt in her mouth all-American Tara Martin on AMC to quasi-European vixen Cecile DePoulignac on AW. And finally the male version of prince to beast goes to John Wesley Shipp, who went from GL's speedo-clad-cuckold with a song in his heart Dr. Kelly Nelson to creepy MILF stalker Douglas Cummings on ATWT (although it could be argued that his emergence as a villain was planned as surprise to the audience by casting him against type). Shipp was later cast on OLTL, but I think we can agree that it was less than iconic. EDIT NOTE: not only has there been a "cast against type" discussion, but I started it in 2018 and used Pratt and Shipp as my primary examples (hits hand on head)
  12. At the risk of entering into a discussion with which I have little personal experience, I think this discussion point has been misconstrued both here and in the widely discussed Vice article this week. The issue is not that black women are held to a different standard or the legitimacy of stereotypes about women of color. My experience of MtM and RHOP is that there are so few tv shows centered around the experience of successful woman of color that they feel the burden of representation. Therefore, they are hesitant about the audience response to their lives because Bravo viewers are exposed to so few black women that they might generalize the experiences of this small group of women to the culture as a whole. Ramona Singer does not have to worry that her edit will reflect poorly on the entire population of Upper Eastside divorced women with boob jobs, because there are so many stories about the lives of those women that nobody would assume that they are all like her. However, the women of RHOP, RHOA, and MtM are virtually the only representation of middle aged successful black women in media so they are constantly confronted with questions about how they represent their community.
  13. While I wouldn't go as far as saying that I couldn't stand Kelli as Kim, it was remarkable that between Kelli's Kim, Randall Edwards' Delia, and Cali Timmons' Maggie, Roger Coleridge certainly has a type (lol). They were each schemers with a strong sense of family, always looking out for number one, driven to distraction by romantic fantasies, and always underestimated by their foes. Roger is truly a character that one would never see on a soap today because (a) his age (and his hairline) would be considered too niche, (b) his caddish nature would be considered undesirable, and (c) his complexity would never have been given time to develop. As far as the Proud and the Passionate, to me, there was always a funny through line about the character of Kim that she wanted fame, but she was not a gifted actress. She was always forced to seduce directors, or undermine the lead actors, to get parts because she wasn't very good. Even her own mother was never impressed by her skills on the stage.
  14. You are correct. The issue was discussed in prior pages. At the time of the strike there was a newspaper article about scab soap writers that is cited here http://ryansbaronline.tripod.com/labinetimes88.html Labine lamented that the older woman/younger man story she created had resulted in an unplanned murder. She didn't name the characters in the story but viewers would have easily understood the reference. Worse yet, the scabs had written Kimberly into a corner. Rae had pointed the gun at Michael, but dropped it when she couldn't shoot him. Then, Kimberly shot Michael, but it wasn't initially fatal because, like Scrooge, he was visited three times before he died. First, Tiso Navatny's (sp?) hit-man found Michael close to death, but not dead yet, and left the scene. Later, Jack Fenneli (sp?) came to yell at Michael for screwing up his news story about the mob, but by that time Michael was dead and the police arrived at that very moment. Clearly, Jack was going to be unfairly tried and Rae, who felt sorry for the now pregnant Kimberly, was going to confess to save her daughter. Labine coarse corrected and somehow placed the blame on the mob, even though viewers clearly saw Kimberly shoot him, and she flashbacked to the shooting several times afterward. If this board existed at the time, we would have been up in arms, but savvy viewers who were aware of the strike in 1981 were more forgiving. Kimberly's pregnancy resulted in a lot of good stories, but it was probably never part of Labine's original proposal. But, that's what you get when hire a dude because he has smooth moves on the disco dance floor, rather than actual corporate experience. Interestingly, a 1991 article on Corbett noted that he got his real estate license after being fired from RH, and given that forty years later he still reports on real estate for Extra, it may have been kismet.
  15. I don't think that you are being rude at all, (unlike the writer who compared me to a fictional pimp), and I appreciate your response. Like I said in my initial posting it just a theory that I have been playing around with for a couple of years and your Beth Bryson example from a classic Edge story is a point well taken. While I didn't expect that there would be so little support for my hypothesis from other fans, I continue to wonder about the connection between soap writers who recycled names, because they were unfamiliar with soap history, and how it often coincided with overall unpopular writing choices. However, I also want to emphasize that I think of name recycling as a symptom not a cause of a, (sometimes humorous), coincidence.
  16. This is an excellent example, but they were all created by the same writing team Whereas in 2005 when Sheila Carter returned under LML's writing staff in a very unpopular story that included poisoning Lauren Fenmore through her necklace, she used the alias Jennifer Mitchell, not to be confused with legacy character Jennifer Brooks, and further proof of the recycled name curse Just to clarify, my theory is only about the plots involving the recycled names, not the characters themselves Brad was lots of fun, but that reliquary plot was not great. Kirk Anderson as played by Tom Wiggins was full of charisma, but his exit was very poorly plotted. So, it's not the actor or character, it is that if a fan hears of a new character with a recycled name, they should be concerned because it does not portend good times ahead.
  17. Jax really should have done the whole town a favor and slept with Helena to release some of her pent up rage. (lol) I still recall Elizabeth Taylor's Helena who was trying to protect Mikos's memory, not avenge his peccadilloes. Besides, the man died forty years ago, wouldn't most of his kids be middle-aged by now?
  18. That's odd twist, obviously I have not been paying attention. Does that mean that Helena had a daughter (Cassandra) and a son that she didn't know about, but was still obsessed with Stavros?
  19. I just saw a tweet about a potential paring for Valentine and Alexis. While I know that they aren't blood relatives, didn't Alexis's half sister Kristina share a mother with Valentine? My vague recollection was the Helena slit the throat of Kristina's mother who had been a singer, and I thought she was also the mother of Valentine. If not, who is Valentine's mother? I get that part Cassadine family tree confused all the time.
  20. As the old statistical saying goes, correlation does not posit a a causative relationship, thus it is a misinterpretation to suggest that the link is foundational. I am merely highlighting the relationship between productions teams that re-used names and those with ill-conceived plots as evidence of regimes that devalued long term viewers in the hope of amusing my fellow soap fans. If one can find evidence of a writing staff that recycled a first name from a prior team which also managed to produce a compelling plot I would be eager to read the results. And since a binary model of gender is outdated, please feel free to refer to me as either sir or ma'am, just don't call me late for dinner.
  21. I was also never as much of a fan of RHONJ as I am of Potomac and New York. To me, a key distinction between the two shows was when Danielle pulled Margaret's ponytail (which sound ridiculous when just writing the phrase), it became about women in their 40's discussing the rights and wrongs of hair pulling, where as Potomac has broken the fourth wall and discussed the implications of being on a show that portrays violence between two women of color. Which may be why the Jersey women are often the subjects of ridicule through the editing of their show and their tacky displays of wealth, while the Potomac women feel as if they are in on the joke.
  22. You're correct, I conflated the two and went back to re-edit the post - boffing your half-sister/half-blind neurosurgery - always confuses me Now can someone please respond with some more supporting information on my hypothesis? This topic feels like herding cats
  23. What chilled me to the bone was Monique's demeanor that continued into the next day. She was filled with misguided rationales without any insight into how extreme her reaction was to the situation. I also really appreciated the context that each of the other women discussed in terms of the racial and gender implications of being a part of a tv show that showed physical violence between two women. It was very compelling. Between this and the Staci interview, at some point Tamron's just going to have to rename her show Watch What Happens 2.0
  24. Perhaps I made my post too long so the point (and humor) got lost? The issue is not that some names are common. The idea is about the re-use of first names as a red flag for a period of soap history that most fans disliked. Because production teams that weren't creative in naming characters usually weren't compelling in their storytelling. And those teams inevitably devalued long term viewers who might recall the prior use of the name.
  25. I've been playing with this theory for awhile and I would be eager to see if anyone can help me gain more evidence. My hypothesis is that a barometer for a nadir in a soap's production is when a first name gets recycled from a previously popular character. I believe that this lack of creativity in character naming is indicative of a production team that either does not know the history of the show, or does not value the audience's long term investment in watching the show for years at a time. Either way, these issues inevitably predict poor ratings and terrible plots. It would be easy to argue that some names are very common, and given that most soaps take place in the mid-west there would probably be many people in town who named their children with the same first name. However, I would counter that this is a genre filled with well written characters named Raven, Draper, and Winter, so repetition seems unnecessary, if a writing staff is innovative. Here are some examples of characters with the same first name who were introduced at a low point in the show's history. The second one may have been more popular, but they were usually introduced during a period that fans disliked the direction of the show. I would welcome more, but I want to hear your rationale, not just a list of repeated names. Also, I would not include characters who were named after each other. OLTL's Sarah Roberts was an inferior character to Sarah Gordon, but in the plot she was named after her late great aunt. Another World: Mary Matthews and Mary McKinnon - McKinnon was a nice character played by well liked actor, but her introduction was universally panned, it involved retconning the history of two different families and lacked logical cohesion John Randolph and John Hudson - Hudson was another perfectly nice guy, but the character's last name made no sense because a few years earlier we learned that his brother was born Michael Garrison and changed his surname for business purposes, thus clearly written by someone who had not been watching the show Vic Hastings and Vic Strang - honestly a tossup between the two characters, but Strang was written by Corrine Jacker, a writer who is widely disliked on these boards for good reason General Hospital: Kevin Collins and Kevin O'Connor - most fans probably prefer Collins, even though his introductory storyline as a twin stalking psychiatrist was offensively bad. However, O'Connor was launched during the horribly long and ill-plotted Laurelton murders. During quarantine I re-watched the edit of the storyline on YouTube, the major plot point of having a bride go crazy on her wedding day as indicated by her singing Amazing Grace through the center of town was cringe inducing David Hamilton and David Grey - pity Laura Spencer who had the misfortune of killing Hamilton and then disappearing because of the some forsaken story about Grey's eyes being hypnotic - a very poorly written exit for a legacy character that was never referenced upon her return All My Children Jonathan Kinder and Jonathan Lavery - regardless of the character of Kinder, there was the inspired triumvirate of Skye, Erica, and Janet that brought new life to those characters, whereas Lavery's head injury was an egregious use of over-acting and misinformation One Life to Live Lee Halperin and Lee Ramsey - a rare cross-gender case of renaming, Halperin's introductory storyline as a video dating pimp was nothing to write home about, and while we never found out if her return was planned or a production mishap of rehiring the same actress almost twenty years later, the soap was forced to changed the character's name when she was reintroduced because they were knee deep in the same-first-named Ramsey storyline which lead to the much hated "rapemance" of Marty and Todd. Megan Craig-Riley and Megan Gordon-Harrison - Craig-Riley was a baby when she died in Vicky's car on the way to the hospital causing her mother Cathy to go insane and later kidnap Vicky's son Joey, and while many will remember Gordon-Harrison more fondly, I would remind you that she was introduced to the Lord family through the Eterna storyline, which was not only criticized for its weird costumes and over the top climax, but also changed the tone of the show that a decade earlier had been filled with stories about social issues like drug addiction and racial inequality Maggie Ashley and Maggie Carpenter - as much as fans like to make fun of evil twins kidnapping and taking over their sibling's lives like Maggie did to Pat, I have two words that prove the second same-named character is always more poorly conceived - circus nun Guiding Light Ben McFarren and Ben Warren and Ben Reade - McFarren was introduced during a critical resurgence of the show's popularity whereas Warren was an example of two kinds of plots that fans dislike; a retcon and a rapist. Reade was a poorly conceptualized SORAS of a well liked character, Reade had been a wise-beyond-his-years comic relief kid but then he returned to Springfield as a tighty-whitey wearing psychotic gigolo. Eve Stapleton and Eve Guthrie - Stapleton and her sister Rita were also part of GL during a well regarded period of its history, Guthrie was an ill-planned spanner in the already unpopular Mindy/Nick romance, she flip-flopped between being evil and being misunderstood, and no one seemed to be able to explain either her motives or mental stability Michael (Mike) Bauer and Michael Burke - it takes a lot of chutzpah to not only create a doctor with the same name as one of the legacy characters on the show, but also to have that doctor be responsible for cloning the lead actress. For those in need of translation, chutzpah is not always a good quality As The World Turns Kirk McCall and Kirk Anderson - few would argue that McCall's time on the show was necessarily a high point for ATWT, however Anderson literally disappeared without an explanation, that is what I consider bad writing in a genre that relies on exposition to try to make sense of usually very complex plots. It was as if they were caught off guard and just dropped the ball on exiting a character from a central family tree Young and the Restless Brad Elliott and Brad Carlton - this may be the exception that still fits the rule because it turned out that neither of them was actually named Brad. However, while Elliott was an out of work half blind neurosurgeon, Carlton's convoluted backstory proves the second-first-name rule. Carlton started as a gardener with a history of dating his client's daughters, one of whom was driven to such jealousy that she locked him a cage for six months, but two decades later (during a true low point in the show's history) we found out that he was actually a holocaust relic hunter named George (not to be confused with George Rawlins, the late husband of Brad Carlton's third wife Cassandra) Summation I think the lesson learned from exploring all of these reiterations is that if a production team can't plan a new character with a unique name, then you cannot trust them to plan a plot that will hold a fan's interest.
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