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AMC: Monday, June 14, 2010


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But a person's past isn't a hard-and-fast indicator of their actions in the future

Especially when one wants to twist said characters inside out to achieve the desired response.

I understand the fear of character assassination but just *maybe* there are times when the writers are trying to address a larger issue in a more powerful way by implementing a beloved character.

And sometimes it works (Lisa) & sometimes it doesn't (Clint).

The point is that race played a direct factor in Lisa's situation.

It wouldn't in the situation you put forth.

Because we're talking about black people! :lol:

Who are no different than everyone else.

Rendering the need to act like homophobia is unique to them pointless.

but you should know that homophobia is alive, well, and unapologetic among a great deal of black men in America.

And White Men. And Asian Men. And Hispanic Men

What's your point?

The same black folks who criticized Chris Rock for telling our business in his hair movie, the same black folks who wouldn't want white people knowing that they don't let their children play out in the sun for too long.

LOL And yet you conveniently left out the extreme limited representation & epic disparity Minorities suffer from in comparison to their Straight White counterparts.

And how the prevailing minority images that are green lit & achieve mainstream success by White run studios & production companies are overwhelmingly limited to the negative.

and if the largest black Pentecostal denomination in the world (where young boys are being seduced by church elders)

Again. Which is different than White Churches how?

Catholic Priests, much?

Homosexuality is one of the biggest, oddest open secrets in the black church where gays are embraced for their talents and their tithes and derided for their "sin" all at the same time... congregations, choirs, and pulpits chock full o' gay black men all the while preaching fire and brimstone for "sissies".

And?

Homosexuality & Religion are problems in EVERY race.

Catholics, Mormons, Quakers?

All overwhelmingly White. All suffering the same problems.

So why the need to act like homophobia something unique to Black People if for no other reason than to imply Black People are so much more homophobic than their peers?

Tokenism has nothing to do with it

Tokenism has everything to do with it.

Before the depth of any Minority Groups experiences can be explored the horrible disparity & extreme limited representation need to be addressed. Until then it's a no go.

Victoria Rowell wanting to do a story about black women and hair, I don't consider that a token's story.

Hair!=Homophobia.

SO not the same thing.

There are religious and social underpinnings to the pervasiveness of homophobia in the black community that aren't identical to those of the white community.

Not identical but extremely similar.

Enough so that again if you're not shaming "Those Poor Ignorant Homophobic Black People Who Don't Know Better" what's the point?

Cause last I checked it was MORMONS who were the majority that helped passed Prop 8 & guess what race THEY are.

We have only to look back at the black man's place in this white man's country, from its very start up to present day where homophobia is one the last remaining bastions of "condoned" prejudice.

If you're really going to try & venture a sociological argument about Racism & "The Black Experience" start with addressing White Privilege.

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Before the depth of any Minority Groups experiences can be explored the horrible disparity & extreme limited representation need to be addressed. Until then it's a no go.

This I am in total agreement with, and while thinking about our discussion earlier today it was my guess that this was the kernel of your argument. This is also why I backed off on the idea of "blacks and homophobia" being played out in daytime because of the utter lack of representation and time devoted to black characters, and I thought that you may also feel (and you'll of course correct me if I'm wrong :lol: ) that with such limited representation, screen time shouldn't be spent on stories that would potentially cast black characters in a negative light. That's why I feel so strongly about predominantly black shows with black writers where ALL of this stuff, I mean, so many shades of black life in America (not just something negative like homophobia) can be dramatized.

(Black people) are no different than everyone else.

Well, tell that to someone who's been pulled over for driving while black. -_-

We are equal (in God's eyes, if not man's -_- ) but we are different. And that's okay. :blush: I love my black and white relatives for WHO they are but I can also appreciate and embrace the cultural differences while taking issue with what I find negative on BOTH sides.

Rendering the need to act like homophobia is unique to them pointless.

I have never said or even implied that homophobia is unique to blacks, but I maintain that homophobic comments are *more likely* to go by unchecked among a group of blacks than whites, political correctness be damned. And that's life experience talking, and maybe I need to preface everything I say with that, but I honestly don't think I'm saying anything that radical that a lot of black people wouldn't also attest to.

and if the largest black Pentecostal denomination in the world (where young boys are being seduced by church elders)

Again. Which is different than White Churches how?

Catholic Priests, much?

Of course I'm conscious of the situation in the Catholic church, give me a little credit here DeeeDee. :lol: But that's one short sentence of a lengthy paragraph complete with three articles *specifically* addressing how this issue is manifest in the BLACK church, addressing the particular attitudes towards homosexuality, AIDS, and religion found among many blacks.

Homosexuality is one of the biggest, oddest open secrets in the black church where gays are embraced for their talents and their tithes and derided for their "sin" all at the same time... congregations, choirs, and pulpits chock full o' gay black men all the while preaching fire and brimstone for "sissies".

And?

Homosexuality & Religion are problems in EVERY race.

Catholics, Mormons, Quakers?

All overwhelmingly White. All suffering the same problems.

So why the need to act like homophobia something unique to Black People if for no other reason than to imply Black People are so much more homophobic than their peers.

No DeeeDee, that's not what I'm saying, but frankly, I'm not TALKING about white people, I'm talking about stories written about BLACK people, this problem in the context of the BLACK church where it is dealt with differently. Why write The Color Purple when stories about women who have risen above mental, physical, and emotional abuse by men have already been written, why create a Broadway musical about the trials and tribulations of a black girl group when musicals about female singers have already been written, why do August Wilson's characters have to be black... because the BLACK experience in America *IS* an unique experience and there's a different story to be told. Just as a story about another unsavory topic like domestic violence is going to have different undertones in a working class black context than in that of an affluent white one. Growing up going to several black charismatic churches, choir rehearsals, and assorted church-related functions full of effeminate men who were equally loved and whispered about is not the same as spending 15 minutes in a Catholic mass where there may have been gay men in the congregation, it's just a totally different environment, a totally different context.

Hair!=Homophobia.

SO not the same thing.

Well of course not, I'm just talking slice of life... hair and high blood pressure, diabetes, AIDS, or colorism, SO not the same thing either, but am I stereotyping or "shaming" black people by telling stories about these very real issues in relation to our community? No.

Not identical but extremely similar.

Enough so that again if you're not shaming "Those Poor Ignorant Homophobic Black People Who Don't Know Better" what's the point?

Cause last I checked it was MORMONS who were the majority that helped passed Prop 8 & guess what race THEY are.

And they and Westboro and every other homophobic organization deserves to be called out, but I'm not even talking about legislation and splashy news stories. I'm talking about a TV drama and stories about black people and the many aspects of black life in America including homophobia that's taught and accepted in homes, churches, on the street corner, on the playground, and how that relates to blacks in particular. I'm not pushing for the "public shaming" of my own people when all I'm talking about is something that could be explored on a dramatic series. I've never seen the show, but I'm sure Noah's Ark has dealt with this, there's the show the DL Chronicles that I've seen a couple episodes of, even The Wire where homothug Omar is many a black man's hero for his superior street cred, robbing drug dealers and blowing off people's knee caps with a sawed off, "but damn, why that nigga gotta be gay?? I don't [[email protected]#$%^&*] with that faggot [[email protected]#$%^&*]."

If you're really going to try & venture a sociological argument about Racism & "The Black Experience" start with addressing White Privilege.

You didn't think you were going to get an argument out of me, a black man, on that one, now did you? :lol:;)

* * *

Well DeeeDee, perhaps it's agree to disagree time. :lol: I've always enjoyed interacting with you on SON, you crack me up, but we obviously have some differing opinions here. I wasn't by any means looking to birth an acrimonious online relationship, so I hope you haven't taken our debate personally and we can continue to get along. :wub: -SFK

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I'll say this much more on the subject; then, I'll walk away:

As a Black man, and as a gay man, I find homophobia to be no more or less prevalent among other Blacks than any other racial or ethnic group. When I came out to my parents, they had (and still have) trouble accepting, not because of our ethnicity, but because of what they think God has to say on the subject. That's the situation for any homosexual who has faced conflict in their coming-out, and will continue to be so long as the world shall turn.

The thing to remember, therefore, is how Jesse and Angie would respond (as parents as well as Black professionals) if their son were to come out to them. Forget how Blacks statistically and/or historically respond; as Agnes Nixon herself would say, follow the characters. Would Jessie and Angie be the types to reject Frankie's homosexuality automatically, or would they be the types to embrace it? Frankly, given their history of always staring down prejudices (when HIV-positive Cindy lived with them, when Angie sued Dr. Voight for sexual harassment, etc.), I would say the latter. And though using them as microcosms in terms of people's, and Blacks in particular, attitude toward homosexuality could make a powerful statement, I think adhering to Nixon's pet themes of tolerance and acceptance makes an equally powerful one.

But, you know, even if Frankie were gay, it wouldn't stop him from still being boring. Just ask Bianca.

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He already knows how to act when conversing with you honey.

I would say "score," but...

Dissing vocabulary? You've graduated from CompuServe to Prodigy flaming. Congratulations. *ruffles your hair*

...Yikes! You had to go ahead and try a little bit too hard, again. What next? Comparing me to a floppy disk or an 8-track? :rolleyes:

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I'll say this much more on the subject; then, I'll walk away:

As a Black man, and as a gay man, I find homophobia to be no more or less prevalent among other Blacks than any other racial or ethnic group. When I came out to my parents, they had (and still have) trouble accepting, not because of our ethnicity, but because of what they think God has to say on the subject. That's the situation for any homosexual who has faced conflict in their coming-out, and will continue to be so long as the world shall turn.

The thing to remember, therefore, is how Jesse and Angie would respond (as parents as well as Black professionals) if their son were to come out to them. Forget how Blacks statistically and/or historically respond; as Agnes Nixon herself would say, follow the characters. Would Jessie and Angie be the types to reject Frankie's homosexuality automatically, or would they be the types to embrace it? Frankly, given their history of always staring down prejudices (when HIV-positive Cindy lived with them, when Angie sued Dr. Voight for sexual harassment, etc.), I would say the latter. And though using them as microcosms in terms of people's, and Blacks in particular, attitude toward homosexuality could make a powerful statement, I think adhering to Nixon's pet themes of tolerance and acceptance makes an equally powerful one.

But, you know, even if Frankie were gay, it wouldn't stop him from still being boring. Just ask Bianca.

I still say that Jesse wouldn't react favorably. Despite the Cindy and Dr. Voight stuff. There's still plenty of room to play around with the idea that this wouldn't go over well with him. There's, admittedly, the issue that person I dislike mentioned about the emasculating/desexualizing of black men that Jesse could have a negative reaction to. There could also be the fact that he views this as his fault for not being there for him to teach him "how to be a man," (which is what a lot of black women say about raising sons with absentee fathers -- Jill Scott's "We Need You," for example). Or even just the simple fact that the life and future Jesse dreamed for his son every day over the 20 years he was in hiding aren't coming true. I would definitely find Angie to be more liberal in this scenario, having been in the medical field, dealing with HIV patients in the past -- gay or straight and having lived in New York City. Also, it doesn't have to be about being homophobic on Jesse's part. As I said before, it could simply come from "That's good for you, but not MY child!" We need to clear that up. A parent not being thrilled that their child is homosexual doesn't necessarily mean they are homophobic.

And, yes, naysayers... I am looking at it from character -- not my own personal experience. My parents were just "Lawda mercy... well, whatever."

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that with such limited representation, screen time shouldn't be spent on stories that would potentially cast black characters in a negative light.

That's not the problem I had with your assertion.

The problem I had was that you wanted to do it with characters that you would have to twist inside out to achieve your goal. That in addition to the disparity & limited representation is the real problem.

I love my black and white relatives for WHO they are but I can also appreciate and embrace the cultural differences while taking issue with what I find negative on BOTH sides.

If you say so. How this became about your family issues is still a mystery. :lol:

but I maintain that homophobic comments are *more likely* to go by unchecked among a group of blacks than whites

Cause young white people don't use "gay" as a negative slang. Right.

but I honestly don't think I'm saying anything that radical that a lot of black people wouldn't also attest to.

Again.

If believing stereotypes is what makes you feel comfortable with Black People that's what you do then.

Of course I'm conscious of the situation in the Catholic church, give me a little credit here DeeeDee. :lol: But that's one short sentence of a lengthy paragraph complete with three articles *specifically* addressing how this issue is manifest in the BLACK church, addressing the particular attitudes towards homosexuality, AIDS, and religion found among many blacks.

You're twisting yourself into a knot trying to defend your illogical point.

It was asserted (correctly) that White People & Religion are as bad if not worse when it comes to homophobia than Black People.

Yet you conveniently ignored that fact in a vain attempt to continue to assert that Black People are still "more homophobic" via shaming them for something their White counterparts wrote the book on.

Again. The Black Church has problems with homophobia but no more than the White Church.

this problem in the context of the BLACK church where it is dealt with differently.

No. It's not. It's dealt with almost EXACTLY the same. That's the point.

Why write The Color Purple

Written by a Black Bisexual.

Just as a story about another unsavory topic like domestic violence is going to have different undertones in a working class black context than in that of an affluent white one.

The difference will be CLASS not RACE.

And the only colors that will matter will still be Black & Blue.

is not the same as spending 15 minutes in a Catholic mass where there may have been gay men in the congregation, it's just a totally different environment, a totally different context.

...How?

15 minutes in Catholic Mass?

Really?

When The Catholic Church is being bombarded by so many lawsuits about pedophile priests they can't even BEGIN to defend them all?

When thousands of young WHITE Catholic children (especially boys) have spent years never speaking about their molestation?

When The Catholic Church doesn't defrock (or even directly address without EXTREME media pressure) accused priests but simply moves them from one parish to another?

Yeah. Totally different.

but am I stereotyping or "shaming" black people by telling stories about these very real issues in relation to our community? No.

You are when you can't go beyond stereotypes & gross generalizations.

You also are when you continue to assert how one group's "issues" are so "different" than their White counterparts when in effect they're not.

Like I said the only thing different about Homophobia in The Church is the music.

I'm not pushing for the "public shaming" of my own people when all I'm talking about is something that could be explored on a dramatic series.

You are when you insist that it HAS to be an issue that NEEDS to be addressed via Black People cause SOME Black People's experiences suddenly conveniently became totally representative of a whole.

I've seen a couple episodes of, even The Wire where homothug Omar is many a black man's hero for his superior street cred, robbing drug dealers and blowing off people's knee caps with a sawed off, "but damn, why that nigga gotta be gay?? I don't [[email protected]#$%^&*] with that faggot [[email protected]#$%^&*]."

And yet even the current President said Omar was one of his most favorite characters on television.

You didn't think you were going to get an argument out of me, a black man

You're Black today? :blink:

I wasn't by any means looking to birth an acrimonious online relationship, so I hope you haven't taken our debate personally and we can continue to get along. :wub: -SFK

Whatever you say! :lol:

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I still say that Jesse wouldn't react favorably. Despite the Cindy and Dr. Voight stuff. There's still plenty of room to play around with the idea that this wouldn't go over well with him. There's, admittedly, the issue that person I dislike mentioned about the emasculating/desexualizing of black men that Jesse could have a negative reaction to. There could also be the fact that he views this as his fault for not being there for him to teach him "how to be a man," [...]. Or even just the simple fact that the life and future Jesse dreamed for his son every day over the 20 years he was in hiding aren't coming true. I would definitely find Angie to be more liberal in this scenario, having been in the medical field, dealing with HIV patients in the past -- gay or straight and having lived in New York City. Also, it doesn't have to be about being homophobic on Jesse's part. As I said before, it could simply come from "That's good for you, but not MY child!" We need to clear that up. A parent not being thrilled that their child is homosexual doesn't necessarily mean they are homophobic.

That's all wonderful (especially the highlighted parts); and definitely, I'd be disappointed not to see that in any actual story.

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You're Black today? :blink:

:o Jeepers, no actually, I forgot to take my pill. Oh SFK, you sure do put the mule in mulatto. ^_^

And yet even the current President said Omar was one of his most favorite characters on television.

He's Black today? :blink:

Yes, I'm aware of what President Obama said, but I'm talking about the considerable amount of black straight male fan reaction towards the character that's been "love with conditions" (love the thug, hate the homo :rolleyes: ). I'm sure there are many white people who feel the same way, but they're not the ones piping up with it in casual conversation and on message boards like it's a perfectly acceptable way to feel.

I love my black and white relatives for WHO they are but I can also appreciate and embrace the cultural differences while taking issue with what I find negative on BOTH sides.

If you say so. How this became about your family issues is still a mystery. :lol:

My point here was that I have no respective persons in regards to race, wrong is wrong. I was getting the impression from you that you are not at all interested in seeing black people do "wrong" on your TV screen given the disparity. But we've cleared that up in your previous response.

but I maintain that homophobic comments are *more likely* to go by unchecked among a group of blacks than whites

Cause young white people don't use "gay" as a negative slang. Right.

The kids aren't the problem, it's the grownups. :( But of course, I went to school with white kids who talked like that, used the F-word=loser, and thankfully many of them now know better just like many of my black friends now know better. But I wish that kids everywhere were getting the message at home that this talk is unacceptable. I happen to hear it a lot from the minority kids I live and work around, and don't get me started on the abundance of Latin kids who have claimed the N-word for their own <_< ...

Again.

If believing stereotypes is what makes you feel comfortable with Black People that's what you do then.

If you feel that this all amounts to stereotyping then so be it, but I'd encourage you to read more accounts on the subject that support both of our opinions and perhaps you'll glean something from someone who better articulates my side of this discussion.

Here's an interesting read: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/terrance-heath/are-blacks-more-homophobi_b_142543.html

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You're twisting yourself into a knot trying to defend your illogical point.

It was asserted (correctly) that White People & Religion are as bad if not worse when it comes to homophobia than Black People.

Yet you conveniently ignored that fact in a vain attempt to continue to assert that Black People are still "more homophobic" via shaming them for something their White counterparts wrote the book on.

Again. The Black Church has problems with homophobia but no more than the White Church.

You're not hearing me, or worse, you're choosing not to listen. It's not about whose homophobia is the worst, it's about homophobia that shows itself in different forms in different settings. The monsters of Westboro show up at a gay person's or a soldier's funeral with their despicable chants and picket signs, and I'm telling you about black churches full of gay men who are very active in the church where preachers shame them for being "sissies" and preach on the call for more "strong, black, masculine, hairy-chested men" (<--not making that up! :lol: ) when in some painfully hypocritical instances the preachers are "sissies" themselves. Both homophobia, both disgusting, but in their own ways.

but am I stereotyping or "shaming" black people by telling stories about these very real issues in relation to our community? No.

You are when you can't go beyond stereotypes & gross generalizations.

You also are when you continue to assert how one group's "issues" are so "different" than their White counterparts when in effect they're not.

Like I said the only thing different about Homophobia in The Church is the music.

And like I said, you are wrong. If you choose to think that issues such as "black male masculinity", "homophobia in the black church", "black male masculinity and homophobia in the black church" don't exist, that's your prerogative and there's no point in us continuing that debate.

The only valid point that lies in the subject of music is that in the black church it has all too often been bastardized as a gateway for predators to prey on talented and aspiring young people and that is WELL documented (GMWA, James Cleveland, Donnie McClurkin, Tonex, Sylvester...).

The difference will be CLASS not RACE.

And the only colors that will matter will still be Black & Blue.

Agreed, but you don't believe that, even historically, there's been some correlation between white male oppression and black male aggression? Poor is poor, but it is no secret that people of color have been afforded less opportunities because of the color of their skin (my argument with people who think Affirmative Action should be based solely on class not race which is to totally ignore the reality of racism).

...How?

15 minutes in Catholic Mass?

Really?

When The Catholic Church is being bombarded by so many lawsuits about pedophile priests they can't even BEGIN to defend them all?

When thousands of young WHITE Catholic children (especially boys) have spent years never speaking about their molestation?

When The Catholic Church doesn't defrock (or even directly address without EXTREME media pressure) accused priests but simply moves them from one parish to another?

Yeah. Totally different.

I wasn't even speaking on the horrors of abuse behind closed doors, I would never make light of what's going on in the Catholic church, but I was speaking of the different Sunday morning environments. There's a difference between a. growing up going to solemn, more impersonal mass where there's little-to-no interaction with your fellow parishioners, some of whom may be gay, and then hopping back into the car once it's over, and b. growing up going to a charismatic black church and related church functions where in many cases there are gay men (who everybody knows are gay) grooving in the choir and congregation and leading praise and worship and assorted church activities... oh, and then Bishop condemns sissies. :o Not the same scenarios and this is how different attitudes on the same subject are developed.

You are when you insist that it HAS to be an issue that NEEDS to be addressed via Black People cause SOME Black People's experiences suddenly conveniently became totally representative of a whole.

I think that it's an authentic aspect of the issue at hand and it would be interesting to dramatize. I'm not insisting upon anything. If I feel that such a story is so important to tell, I can always write it myself... and there we have it. :blush:

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Oh SFK, you sure do put the mule in mulatto. ^_^

You're the one that said it. :lol:

I'm sure there are many white people who feel the same way,

The end.

but they're not the ones piping up with it in casual conversation and on message boards like it's a perfectly acceptable way to feel.

Yes they are.

You just choose to ignore it cause it doesn't fit with the stereotypes & generalizations you want to believe about Black People.

I was getting the impression from you that you are not at all interested in seeing black people do "wrong" on your TV screen given the disparity.

Black People (and other Minorities) can do "wrong" on tv. Just on their own shows.

As long as the White Racist Power Structure continues to control the majority of the ,the marginalization & disparity for Minority characters/actors/producers/writers in terms of visibility, depth, quantity & quality of representation will continue to exist.

The kids aren't the problem, it's the grownups.

Kids become Grownups.

:( But of course, I went to school with white kids who talked like that, used the F-word=loser

So then why the rampant generalizations if not to shame one group when all are guilty?

live and work around

And if you moved where there were majority White Kids you would hear it too. Unless you chose to ignore it cause it didn't feed your preconceived stereotypes of & help you make gross generalizations about POC.

I'd encourage you to read more accounts on the subject that support both of our opinions and perhaps you'll glean something from someone who better articulates my side of this discussion.

I don't need to read years old articles about homophobia & religion. Especially when again all are guilty yet the only groups that are held accountable are THOSE THAT SHOULD KNOW BETTER. FOR SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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You're not hearing me, or worse, you're choosing not to listen.

I'm hearing you.

I'm just not buying what you're selling.

It's not about whose homophobia is the worst

It totally is.

it's about homophobia that shows itself in different forms in different settings.

Homophobia is Homophobia.

Parsing it is an attempt at making it ok for those With power to give themselves false equivalency to those Without.

I'm telling you about black churches full of gay men who are very active in the church where preachers shame them for being "sissies" and preach on the call for more "strong, black, masculine, hairy-chested men" (<--not making that up! :lol: ) when in some painfully hypocritical instances the preachers are "sissies" themselves.

Which makes them different from Mormons (like Donny Osmond), Catholics & Christians that preach the exact same thing?

Again. Nothing different but the music.

And like I said, you are wrong.

No. YOU are wrong.

If you choose to think that issues such as "black male masculinity", "homophobia in the black church", "black male masculinity and homophobia in the black church" don't exist

I never said that.

What I said was that particular issue is universal in a religious context.

You're just attempting (and failing) to devalue other religions accountability to bolster your illogical assertions.

The only valid point that lies in the subject of music is that in the black church it has all too often been bastardized as a gateway for predators to prey on talented and aspiring young people and that is WELL documented

Again.

Hundreds of thousands of White Catholic Priests, Senators & Congressmen (often Republican & heavily involved in the church) participate in the same kind of predatory & hypocritical behavior.

What's your point?

Agreed, but you don't believe that, even historically, there's been some correlation between white male oppression and black male aggression?

What I believe is that before one begins to parse Black Masculinity one needs to address Racism & White Privilege.

(my argument with people who think Affirmative Action should be based solely on class not race which is to totally ignore the reality of racism).

Affirmative Action has to do with The Church how? :lol:

I would never make light of what's going on in the Catholic church

But you would devalue or altogether ignore it if it didn't fit with your shaming assertion of The Black Church.

Does the Black Church have issues with homophobia & masculinity? Sure. As does The White Church.

There's a difference between a. growing up going to solemn, more impersonal mass where there's little-to-no interaction with your fellow parishioners, some of whom may be gay, and then hopping back into the car once it's over

Tell that to the millions of White Catholic & Christian boys & girls who live in the closet or commit suicide cause it's more terrifying for them to be who they are than to live as who their religion tells them they should be.

oh, and then Bishop condemns sissies. :o

Ted Haggard, Roy Ashburn, Larry Craig, Mark Foley, Oral Roberts, Pat Buchanan, Jimmy Swaggert, Pat Robertson (amongst MANY others) do the same thing.

I think that it's an authentic aspect of the issue

Again. Authentic to SOME.

Scott Evans said he had a relatively painless coming out process. Why is that not applicable to Minorities?

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I think we're "there". :lol: Where our opinions are either firmly opposed or even quite the same actually, save for some hairsplitting. I'm at the point where my replies would be redundant. And yes, I do get passionate about the subject matter and sometimes separate issues start to bleed into my argument so I *will* apologize for at times introducing things that took us off course. Wasn't my intention as I felt that they were examples rather than distractions.

I still think you're being stubborn :P by not taking the time to read some of those not at all ancient articles about black gay men and their experiences in the church. A white gay Christian's story is not an Iraqi gay Muslim's story is not an African gay Christian's story is not an African-American gay Christian's story. I gave you, posts ago :lol: , that homophobia is abominable all around (though you would agree that it's worse in a country where you can be put to death for being gay), all I'm asking is that you open your mind to the reality that men in America are faced with it differently in different cultural contexts (race, religion, region, socio-economic...). I'm letting go of the "better or worse", but I'm sticking by the "different".

"Yes they are. You just choose to ignore it cause it doesn't fit with the stereotypes & generalizations you want to believe about Black People."

What can I say, I was employed by Home Box Office and worked with said show and the *vocal* (I'll give you that much) majority of unapologetic homophobic fan reaction has been from straight black males.

"You're just attempting (and failing) to devalue other religions accountability to bolster your illogical assertions."

Never, not at all. If I gave that impression I didn't mean to.

"Kids become Grownups."

But grownups (of all colors!) need to do their job and put these kids in check, kids (especially the younger ones) are not the responsible party.

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