AMC: Monday, June 14, 2010

[DeeeDee]

Their experiences with homophobia at the core are still homophobia.

Middle Eastern People, Hispanic People & Black People both experience racial profiling but at the end of the day they're all still victims of institutional racism.

At the end of the day their backgrounds may be different (purely on the surface) but the end result is the same.

They are not.

The bottom line is every race has problems with masculinity & homophobia especially when mixed with religion regardless of background.

Stop trying to make one internal bigotry worse than others.

Right.

You're twisting yourself in knots in an attempt to support your assertions. It's not working.

I've agreed with you that The Black Church has problems (homophobia being one of the biggest) but that doesn't make them any different than any other race, ethnicity or religion beyond the music.

Should they be addressed? Sure.

BY Black People on Black shows with preferably Black writers.

Not in Daytime & not on AMC.

They should.

They should also not be racist, bigoted, sexist or homophobic themselves.

Good luck with that.

[SFK]

We basically agree here. I agree with you that it is the same at the core though their backgrounds are different, but I don't agree that people's backgrounds are different "purely on the surface". I think it runs a little deeper. Different cultures have different norms and values. I believe that we are all essentially the same as humans, but saying that cultural differences are only "surface" devalues a lot of uniquely beautiful things about people (and yes, to be fair, if you take the good, you gotta take the bad, take 'em both...).

If we can put the issue of homophobia and race in America aside for a minute, if we look at how homosexuality is dealt with in parts of the Eastern hemisphere where people are *legally* killed for being gay, I'm going to have to say that while still homophobia, yeah, that's a *worse* manifestation of homophobia. Being shamed in church isn't the same as being killed by firing squad. Period. If I can agree with you that it isn't a matter of "better or worse" in American churches, take out the issue of race altogether, we cannot deny that in this world there are degrees. In America, what these degrees are from denomination to denomination, state to state, race to race, church to church is harder (impossible) to pin down and we have to reconcile for ourselves that gray area of stereotyping, personal experience, perceived truth, and reality. Or we can just sit and watch soap operas and not think about it at all.

Forget better or worse, I'm talking prevalence. You've never had an inner city Puerto Rican or black, or even southern white male friend tell you about what it was like growing up in an environment that stressed hypermasculinity? It happens all over the country, in some places more than in others, influenced by race, by region, by socio-economic status. And yes, such men are going to have different relationships with the concepts of "masculinity" and "homophobia" than your average asian kid living in Greenwich, CT. Yes, every race has these issues at the bottom line but there are other factors at play.

Nope, no knots here, you're just determined to keep it salty. I agreed with your "bottom line" that homophobia is homophobia in the church but offered different homophobic scenarios to make my point that it doesn't always look the same. A man will call you a nigger to your face, another would never do that and instead spray paint it on your car under the mask of night. The same stinking racism, went about in different ways. You keep looking at the beginning of the argument and not its evolution when I've come to see some things your way, or have at least found some middle ground.

I've agreed with you that The Black Church has problems (homophobia being one of the biggest) but that doesn't make them any different than any other race, ethnicity or religion beyond the music. Okay.

Should they be addressed? Sure. Yes.

BY Black People on Black shows with preferably Black writers. Yes.

Not in Daytime & not on AMC. Yes.

Now Khan, getta writin'.

A sad "Amen."

[DeeeDee]

In the positive yes.

In the negative no.

North Carolina & Florida are both states.

Different Histories. Different People. Different Flags. Different Sports Teams.

And still both are Southern States.

Tied together by shared history (both good & bad) that is the legacy of "The South".

So regardless of what makes them different they are at the core still the same.

The same with Minorities.

They may speak different languages or listen to different music but their lives at the core are the same when it comes to dealing with Institutional Racism, White Privilege, Sexism & Homophobia.

It could be argued that they are in America too.

And yet Americans wonder why those that immigrate here, immigrate here.

Definitely.

But there's shared experiences again.

The term Ugly Americans wasn't conceived just for fun.

Plenty.

And the funny thing is they ALL had the same issues at the core.

The music & food may change but the issues remain the same.

No. There are not. The bottom line is that masculinity as a construct regardless of things like race, ethnicity, class & even religion is a problem for ALL men.

Hence terms like Bromance being invented.

So men of ANY race could be comfortable expressing affection toward each other without being accused of being gay.

No dear. You're trying to convince yourself of something by convincing me. Not gonna happen.

You can offer all the "scenarios" you want.

The end result is that it is the ugliness each group experiences is the same all channeled through the lens of Male Privilege.

No.

Again. I see what you're selling. I'm just not buying.

The bottom line is whether it's Orel Roberts, The Pope, Eddie Long or Pat Robertson homophobia is wrong.

[SFK]

Okay, I get it. I think our main point of contention here (if I may use a clunky metaphor) is that you see homophobia as the hand, and I see homophobia as the palm and the fingers. Right, right?

[DeeeDee]

You see it as parsable. I don't.

[SFK]

Right. Okay. Reminds me of the opposing views in the Christian church on whether to pray "In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" or "In Jesus' Name", pretty much the same thing but different enough for there to be cause for debate.