Y&R Episodes Discussion, Week of October 26, 2009

[DRW50]

I have to disagree.

Victor was always a very flawed man when Bill Bell was around. Remember when Victor allowed everyone to think he was dead, so he could have some peace (and then be happy with his new soulmate, Hope)? He came back BECAUSE he learned that his family had moved on without him, had, in some cases, perhaps found some of the perspective they would not have had with him in their lives. I remember one of the big triggers for him being a bonding moment between young Nick and Jack, where Nick had clearly been able to put his father's death behind him. Never have I seen a better demonstration of the complex, sometimes downright cruel man Victor could be.

If that story played out now, Nikki would be in the gutter. Nick would be buying drugs at school. Newman Enterprises would be in freefall.

There is no longer any ambiguity allowed. Victor is awesome. That's it. End of story. Nikki and Ashley cannot exist without him. They fall apart. Yes, he treats them badly, but they want him to treat him badly. They need that. What are they on their own? It's the same with his children. They now live for him. They may tut-tut about his latest insane actions, but that's just Victor.

Victor has gone from being a very troubled man who is loved in spite of his flaws to a deity who is loved because of his flaws. I don't believe that's what Bill Bell had in mind. I can't imagine him writing a scene where you have eight or nine characters running around in hysterics because of a very mild hit piece. I thought the reaction to Restless was more balanced, although it's been a long time, I might be wrong.

[MarkH]

I just DO NOT SEE THIS.

Victor as deity?

Depicted as a moustache-twirler, with constant insults from Jack, and Gloria mocking his mumbling? Most of the town hates him.

I don't see them playing any sympathy or martyr beats.

Ashley and Nikki ABSOLUTELY can exist without him. Nikki is contemplating how she can let him into her life, without losing herself. Ashley has banished him...and even if she is still mentally ill, she won't take him back.

Truly, I don't see this at all. I see zero deification at all...if anything, they have turned decisively away from that during this most recent period.

[classicmoment]

Yeah but these are insignificant characters to hit at the core of the Victor character in one way or another. Jack vs Victor, Gloria vs Victor, Billy vs Victor are the perfect characters to choose to depict antagonism when you're not trying to paint Victor in that bad of a light, each have their own crimes or wrongs or I guess the best way to to put it their own 'crosses to bare'. What would matter is if they wrote the character of Nick correctly, his daughter's (miraculously /quickly healed condition mind you) should make Nick damned mad. Should he be conflicted, I guess that part is within character but for a man who is still reeling from losing his first child, then a second, then a third with the woman he loves mind you where's the anger all of that should be placed on his father, even if some is displaced. I know Nick and Victor have a sick father/son debacle but it is only right IMO that Nick let alot of his issues out on his father, they won't go there God forbid EB is prolly not having any of it. Phyllis should be running down Victor with a car by now but nope, they want to go the Gloria and Jeffrey, Jack & Billy Abbot route. They antagonize these characters enough for the viewer to know that they will never be validated in a conflict with Victor

[DRW50]

Ashley is out of her mind. If she does exist without him, she will be doing so on the edge of a breakdown. That's what I take from the writing, where Victor is more than fair to her, lets her have the ranch, tries to calm her as she lashes out, and as her own daughter hates her. It makes her "I'm going to be independent" stance into a laugh.

The same for Nikki, she says she will hurt herself in the long run if she's with him, but she is still going to be with him. Katherine, who is the queen of GC according to the show, the wisest of all, has repeatedly told her that this is a relationship that should be, and that the way Victor treats her is just the way he loves her.

Gloria is a loser. Jack is a loser. Billy is a loser, albeit one we're supposed to like.

The characters we are supposed to respect, they always forgive and support Victor, no matter what he does. Traci, whose daughter died because of him, shared a moment of warmth with him at the christening he crashed. We also get a lot of displays of the power he has over his children - Victoria shames Phyllis from even speaking badly of the man who caused her daughter to suffer brain damage.

I think the undertone in most of the writing for Victor is, "He's not a nice man, but real men aren't nice. Fear him and admire him for what he is. And remember, someone else is always as bad, if not worse."

That's why we get these painful scenes of various characters saying, "Jack is as much to blame for Patty as Victor" and, "Victor took three bullets for Jack," and Victor saying, "This isn't the first time the Abbotts have come after me." And that's why, at the first sign of a mild article attacking him for his behavior, everyone from Sharon to Michael to Ashley were disgusted and heartsick.

[Cat]

I have to disagree.

Everything in yesterday's US episode was geared towards making us feel sorry for the old codger. From the heart-stirring music swelling in the background as he "begged" Nikki to stay with him, to the way he would periodically clutch his heart and have little gasping spasms, to the overblown rhetoric of Billy/Jack's article.

MAB may have been writing Victor out at the time. But Victor is being cast as the hunted, being run out of town by the bully-boy Abbotts.

And ITA with classicmoment who said that Phyllis should be revving up her car to run him over right about now. Instead, it's like Summer's brain damage is being played down as being no biggie "ya, ya, definitely. Summer's doing GREAT at school!"

[lovely_m]

Now Katherine is pissed off at Billy doing his article.

Poor Colleen, she's dead and she has to prop Victor. Tammin looks like Mandy Bruno in that picture.

[MarkH]

I don't like the insta-recovery of Summer either...although that could just be Phyllis being over-optimistic. Two weeks ago, the girl couldn't even speak two words.

I just don't see it! I haven't seen Victor's farewell eps, but I do imagine they'll be heart-swelling...but that's because of the real possibility that it represented EB's final moments.

My sense of Victor is that he is being written and played as vile...unapologetic, revenge-minded, reckless...and that the people in his environment recognize all of that. I also think--and this was the long-term genius of Bill Bell's creation--that at the same time he *used* to be shown as having redeemable characteristics, and even now, each of these people have enough of a history of love and happiness with him (if only for brief shining moments) that they are unable to just give him the "heave ho".

For me, with Victor (and I'm not excusing recent writing, which in my opinion has further villainized--not sanctified--him), what Y&R has always so masterfully shown was love could still be comingled with anger and hate. Even Jack and Victor, at their worst, could set aside some differences if they had a common purpose. (We haven't seen that, really, in a long while).

But apparently I have this warmed view of the show...not based in reality. I keep wondering what I'm missing.

I really don't see this elevation of Victor at all.

[DRW50]

I think that if they wanted to paint Victor as being reckless and out of control and vile, they wouldn't constantly use the "Jack is as bad" or "Victor saved Jack" disclaimers. They have worked tirelessly to make sure we know someone else always shares as much blame, or even more blame, and that at heart, Victor is a better man than those who hate him.

But we can agree to disagree.

[MarkH]

We sure can.

In the specific case of Patty, Jack is the ORIGINAL BLAME (and he never fully atoned for that...especially since he STILL used Mary Jane sexually 25 years later). Victor is the RECENT BLAME.

Both blames are legitimate. I don't think that "disclaims" Victor's guilt at all. And I feel Emily's "voice" has clearly shown that. Jack was vile...but it in no way absolves Victor.

[Ann_SS]

LOL! I have always loved the scene where Jack throws the chair out of the window. Victor smashing the picture was hilarious. Great seeing the clips of Jack and Victor's classic confrontations again.

[classicmoment]

Mark I think in that sense it is a question of counter balance. Victor have the Newman and most others acting as if what he did for now is not that big of a deal, Jack villanous because none of that same kind of support is clearly show for that character. They are both wrong for contributions they have made to the whole thing but Victor's was worse, he took an already fragile woman and pushed her further on down the slope. These things should be a part of the resolution

Two of my favorite Y&R scenes ever it's up there with the Kimble shooting for me

[Ann_SS]

^^ My other favorite scene is Kimble going into the trash compactor.

Victor is such a hypocrite. He has treated his family like crap over the years.

For all EB's complaints, he got a damn fine tribute today.

Billy makes me laugh. He is so gleeful about getting his revenge on the Newmans.

[alphanguy74]

Here's what bugs me. Gloria and Jeffrey have come off with NO BLAME in this whole thing, and they are the ones who kidnapped Patty in the first place, when she was holed up in a church and close to a surrender agreement. Of course, one could say that Victor is ultimately responsible there as well, because those two wouldn't be so desperate for money if Victor hadn't wrecked the bank in the Caymans.

[MarkH]

Ooooh...you're right.

Both Victor and Jack know about this, too. If they had properly turned Patty into the authorities at that time (or not interfered), Patty would have gotten the help she needed then and there....no Colleen kidnapping...no Victor shooting.

Hey, Fishwin haters, here's your chance! Glo-Jeff are the REAL criminals in need of punishment!

It is hard to give Victor ultimate responsibility for Glo-Jeff, since they were baaaaaaaaaad and selfish looooooooong before Victor entered the picture. If Victor hadn't blown their riches, they would have lost them some other foolish way. (On the other hand, Jill would never have invested so stupidly...for her, that was pure plot driven bullsh!t).

[soapfan770]

Watching Victor tear down the homoerotic portrait of Jack and Brad always makes me smirk.

I hate Nick and Victoria's current defense of Victor given that Nick is usually the first one to jump and attack. Remember 2003 anyone?