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I don't think that would have worked either, as these trade deals never have in the long-term. There is a steady exodus away from the US being seen as a place to manufacture or sell anything, and unlike many other countries, those up high in business and government felt little incentive over the decades to keep any kind of infrastructure or systems that would keep America regenerating. They were happy to strip us bare. 

 

Trump is just accelerating the path, driving us right off the cliff. And even as China itself has faltered in the last few years, that is just making people see the whole thing as us vs them, not caring that us and them are just going off the same cliff at different speeds.

 

 

This is likely down to Seoul saying that the US is resuming their war games. 

 

We were never going to have any "peace" with North Korea. Trump got a photo op out of it and that was all he wanted. 

 

The saddest part is the shootings have actually helped Trump. They've distracted from how much of his foreign policy and economic decisions have become laid in ruins. 

 

As each day passes I'm more sure he's going to win reelection. 

Edited by DRW50
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Don't know if anyone else remembers this, but DHS early in the Obama Administration had warned against right-wing extremism, but was criticized by conservatives.

 

 

It's really interesting that some conservatives thought this report was directed at them when it was specifically talking about radicalization and not regular conservatism.

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I get where you're coming from and I don't entirely disagree BUT farmers would be in a much better position right now with the TPP. Right now they've been reduced to begging for government handouts. Once Trump is out of office, those markets will still be closed to them. A lot of these farmers have lost business for a generation. 

 

And thanks to climate change, we don't have many generations left.

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Some Democrats who had initially criticized the TPP have quietly walked back their remarks, saying instead that they would've continued the negotiations (as Japan did until they got an adequate amount of concessions). 

It was labor intensive work, which the Trump administration didn't want to do (because they're lazy and unconcerned).  Trump later said, that he wanted in on the TPP then amended his remarks to give some sketchy later date, while the ASEAN countries basically thumbed their noses at Trump and said they'd wait for an hope for a new administration to join. 

The irony was that it was an initiative that the U.S. began under the Obama administration, so yes, the other countries were looking to the U.S. to have a leading role in doing the arduous work of hammering out the final guidelines for the trade deal.

It's not as easy as saying it wouldn't work because the U.S. no longer "makes things".  Trade is vital to any functioning economy.  And nobody gets everything that they want in these agreements.  Compromise was essential.  Obama understood that.  Others...not so much.  Where the U.S. left off in the TPP negotiations was in the media res, it wasn't near the end, so what people were b*tching about wasn't even the final agreement. Trump ensured that if the U.S. ever wants to re-enter the TPP, it won't even be close to being on the U.S.' terms, America will only be in a position to comply with the existing framework, similar to the Paris Climate Accord.

 

 

The Obama administration warned of many things that went ignored by conservatives as well as the media.  People blame him/his administration because Obama treated Americans like adults who can understand and digest the message -- he refused to nag and beg, like some nanny.  I guess people prefer a nag who will moan and whinge and repeat himself, over and over because that's surely what we've got in the White House now.

 

I agree. An imperfect agreement would've been better than none.  As it is, Trump is crowing about a small group of cattle ranchers being able to sell beef to parts of the E.U. but they are essentially locked out of Asian countries which are a much larger market.  He's taken away the biggest best cuts of the "meat" and instead is bragging about giving them gizzards in return.

 

It's also bizarre that farmers know that climate change is part of the mitigating circumstances to their suffering but most literally cannot bring themselves to say the actual word climate change. I saw a news report where the reporter interviewed a farmer and he said that he wasn't going to speak the words. Strange.

Edited by DramatistDreamer
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I think one of the problems with the agreement was what came before it. Decades have been spent on agreements that were supposed to help, supposed to be fine with only a few improvements, yet these agreements ultimately benefited mostly just the rich and continued the pattern of a long exodus of jobs and brains out of the country. Both parties were happy to just give slick, empty answers about the wonders of NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. and were fine with writing off anyone who complained as being anti-globalist, small-minded, naive, etc. After the results of agreements that were supposed to be on the best terms and were supposed to make us competitive, there was zero reason for many people to put their faith into TPP.  The party seemed completely flatfooted at criticism to TPP and how to respond to it. The party is generally flatfooted at addressing the idea that many voters don't believe in globalism for all, globalism is our future and our best friend. Many will say oh these people are xenophobes, they're bigots, they hate the world, they are all going to choke and die, and so on, but they are one of the reasons Hillary lost, and likely the reason Trump will win again in two years, unless anything is done to figure out how to address these concerns.

 

It's not so much about being ignored by conservatives as much as them not caring. As far as they're concerned, these guys are killing the right people. Blacks, Jews, Latinos, gays. They want all of these groups to die, and to die screaming. 

Edited by DRW50
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I think most of these farmers were screwed no matter what. The big corporations have been pushing to buy them out for years. They were being left behind, as the world has also been leaving America behind for decades. The real question is when the government will finally start being honest and working toward absorbing and these changes beyond what they're doing now - payouts that are just lip service and do nothing to stop more and more farmers from giving up. 

 

Between our failures in free trade and the death of the farming industry, America will have to accept "socialism" sooner rather than later, whether they like it or not. I just worry about what version of "socialism" we're going to get. At the moment, the most likely version is a theocracy powered by the suffering and death of everyone who doesn't look exactly like your average white male Republican.

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So now instead of having two decades at least to get their lives together and transition into something else, the farmers get no time to save themselves, just face more ruin, bankruptcy and higher suicide rates, while everyone else collectively shrugs.  Hm, or is that Atlas who shrugs?

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They've had decades to get their lives together and transition into something else, as the '80s were the era that decimated so many farmers, but it never really happened. At this point I don't think it was ever going to happen and I don't think TPP would have made it happen either. The system has locked out real change. Shrugging is one perspective, or the other would be for somebody in power to finally start accepting the reality that so many generations of politicians created and start making tough decisions about our agricultural industry. It's easy for me to say that, as I'm not a farmer or a politician, but something should have been done a long time ago.

Edited by DRW50
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While I didn't grow up on a farm, I come from family who owned land, were planters who also raised, butchered and sold their own meat and dairy. Granted they are in the Caribbean, not the U.S. but I have walked that land and seen what goes into it and yeah, it's easy to simplify an entire way of life.

 

I definitely don't agree with most of these farmer's political choices and in many ways they have brought this on themselves but I don't know of any country that doesn't encourage some sort of farming system.  Most countries are encouraging more and better farming systems and food sustainability. 

 

Now maybe the discussion should be centered on a better, more equitable farming ecosystem (it's not just white farmers or industrial farmers, black farmers and small family farmers are the ones who stand to lose the most) instead of some sort of zero sum game in which the discussion is often framed. 

It is the fault of many farmers but everyday Americans are also to blame for not really wanting to acknowledge what really goes into the American food system. 

Most Americans don't even seem to know where their food comes from-- many of the same countries that get mocked daily are the very ones that Americans rely upon for the bulk of their produce. And the chances of contamination from traveling long distance from fields abroad to the supermarkets, well that's too much like knowing how the sausage is made (which I haven't eaten since the late 80s).

Unless people are fine with being dependent on imported food, people need to care regardless of how selfish or foolish we think farmers have been. 

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I think that the farmers who supported Trump have given many of the rest a bad image. I imagine most farmers don't vote, as most people don't vote. Many of the farmers who did vote for Trump are probably rich and corporate and preying on their lessers. Many of those who need help, I'm sure some did vote for Trump, but many are probably just trying to make it through each day without putting a gun in their mouth. 

 

Those who did support Trump have given something of a free pass for the Democrats who have been itching to write off the "flyover country" coalition to begin with. 

 

Most of those voters are probably gone and not coming back, so, in an ideal world, the next Democrat who is elected won't get in based on their support and will feel more free to make more clearcut decisions instead of the usual "you can't do this because you need to win Iowa" stuff we get every 4 years. 

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