Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[Paul Raven]

No need to apologize. Really enkoy reading pposters' perspectives.

 

The thing about Loving's ongoing changes is that it allows us to see how BTS shakeups affect onscreen happenings. More stable shows are less interesting in that respect.

[Soaplovers]

I view Gwyn becoming more 'frumpy ' as a form of mourning for Trisha.  After all, she and Trisha always had a difficult relationship so she felt guilt and grief.

 

She also became a mother hen to Janie, and later Steffi as a way to satisfy the mother instinct.  In 1995, when Trisha is revealed as alive, gwyn has hope for a second chance..but when Trisha rejects her...gwyn goes over the edge...hence the Loving murders.  It made sense she was the killer..killing to relieve pain. 

[Franko]

A few observations on where we're currently at with the uploads and how it corresponds to the big picture. Forgive me if I screw up the spoiler tagging.

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Edited April 18, 2020 by Franko
Fixed spoiler tagging

[John]

The City Originally was gonna start airing late October 1995 but was delayed til Nov 13th 1995. LOVING finished Nov 10th 1995

Edited April 18, 2020 by John

[Vee]

Your rambling is very welcome, dc.

[DRW50]

@dc11786 just to echo what others have said, I do appreciate all your thoughts. I will admit flat out that I never can make any real sense of the different shifts in writer and producer changeover when we get episodes, as they are so spaced apart. Your details and insights help fill in the blanks. Loving was very lucky in that they had a core of actors who help mask the constant changes, but I appreciate knowing exactly what caused all these changes. The whiplash doesn't seem as evident onscreen as it does when reading, because of the work of Tudor, Taylor, Peluso, etc. but sometimes it does creep in, and I'm glad to know why. I keep wishing more of these plans had been able to be played out, but I will say that most of what we get to see is at least watchable. I know there were "bad" periods of Loving, but I never have felt them when I watch. I also agree that it's harder to watch the murder story, and how I sort of have to separate it from the rest of the show. I do think the aggressive new characters brought in for The City were something of a nuisance and probably didn't help viewers want to move on with the transition. I was distracted by just how bad George Palermo's acting was in Stacey's death episode, when he was confronting Tess. It's a credit to Cat Hickland that she was able to maintain performance and carry him along. (he did improve over the course of Loving's last months, even if I never cared for the character) 

 

Another thing I notice when watching these is that Robert Tyler was a better actor than he tended to get credit for.

[titan1978]

The amount of writer changes and shifting sands of storytelling are crazy.  What a difficult show to follow for a fan, and the actors must have been driven crazy!

 

 

[Vee]

I love the murder story. But I understand why some people don't. I just think '90s LOV is a story of endless potential in a cozy, misty package that constantly found itself lost in the woods but never without talent. I think the Loving Murders are brutal, but also heavily linked to the core of the show and satisfyingly resonant. You can see the seeds of this stuff even in those recent eps from '92 and '93, or even in random personal conversations and character moments.

[DRW50]

 

I think it's a compelling story, just hard to watch at times and sort of saddled between ending a 12 year soap and awkwardly trying to launch a new one. I do wish The City had succeeded, but since it didn't, I wonder how compelling a final ending with Corinth would have been instead.

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You mentioned the GH references under Ron. I wish they'd done more with that - they still could, especially as they have Laura Wright there and everything, and GH, mainly in the '90s, sometimes had the same hints of atmosphere and edge underneath all the mobster posturing, especially the Ryan/Kevin saga. 

Edited April 18, 2020 by DRW50

[dc11786]

I hadn't considered the element of Gwyn's frumpishness in connection to Trisha's death. That would make sense. 

 

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My problem more lies in the way we are getting there. In my opinion, you have a lot of characters who are acting very idiotically in order to generate the mystery. I guess I can buy that Curtis would frame Buck, who was already in jail but might possibly get out even though it just made him look guilty. I don't buy that Isabelle would light candles from a mysterious person when people are being murdered left and right. I don't get a sense from the writing that Alex Masters knows these characters as well as he does. I really struggle with Alex attacking Curtis without any sort of feeling for someone who once called him Dad. Or that Alex was once Clay Alden. I just don't get the sense of any of that. I did appreciate the moment where Alex broke down after Cabot and Isabelle died. That rang true to me. 

 

On the otherhand, I definitely think there are seeds to this story. The idea of the Alden family being cursed, ala the Kennedys, had been suggested for several years prior to the killings. The Alden in peril plot was pretty successful when Dante came to Corinth. I also think that there is an attempt to connect to the pilot. I don't think there had been reference to WCN-TV, or whatever the station is, since Merrill left. The logo on the station from Richard's broadcast seems to be very similar to the one featured in the pilot.  It would have been interesting to link the two killers. Maybe reveal that the killer's actual mother was Amelia Whitley or something. I don't know. 

 

I understand why most people enjoy the story. It brings an energy that wasn't really there even during the better runs of the show. It's just such an adjustment because "Loving" is a quieter show. Those big stories (the crossover/the Universal remote) rarely worked. What worked best was investing in characters and a long story, which was nearly impossible with the turnover. Nixon and Josie Emmerich seem to have a fairly lengthy run together (maybe a full year). I think that's the longest combo since Taggert & King with Joe Hardy. I think Babbin and Taggert made a year, but Tom King left at one point so even that wasn't without change. 

 

I think it feel more modern than anything that came before it. It is definitely more adult, in a different way. than what had been happening. It feels like the show is set more in the real world. It's not something I require of my soaps though. I think of the Tim Burton "Batman" films. That world feels right for those characters. I feel like my ideal soap town crazy things can happen as long as the characters react the way one would given that situation. I feel, in this case, plot is coming first. People may argue otherwise and I can respect that. 

 

At the end of the day, this is the story people most remember the show for, which I feel is unfortunate in the sense that it is not a true representation of what the show aimed to be or could be. It also suggests that this world was mostly expendable. If this was a English language telenovela, I would be completely cool with it. It reminds me of a Brazilian series "A Proximia Vitimia," which was rerun in the states in the late 1990s. 

 

I will say I think it speaks to Harmon Brown and Essensten's range that their revamp of "Loving" and their revamp of "Port Charles" went in two complete different directions while maintain some similar elements. 

 

Yet, it is also modern in the sense that this new crop of characters are so unlikeable. I don't remember disliking Tony or Danny as much as I what I've seen of the last few months of "The City," but Danny is awful and Tony is propped by Alex to no end. Catherine Hickland does her best with writing that really roots against her in every conceivable way. 

 

My apologies about OJ. I knew there was almost a full week of preemptions in July that through things off that I was always told was connected to OJ. 

 

@DRW50 The actors make the show work. They seem to manage to always find something at the core of the character to make whatever characterization whatever new writer gives them to work. I'm sure it helped this was back in the day when people had time to rehearse and directors had time to give notes. 

 

[DRW50]

 

I remember in Tudor's exit interview she mentioned "getting her body back." I think she had a young child in these years. So that may have also been a factor in her change in wardrobe. 

 

Speaking of Christine, I found this from 1988 which mentions her overcoming a rough past. So many fascinating layers. I'm sorry she hasn't done anything since Loving.

 

https://apnews.com/6e34cbf8280546d25b3e6ca25a059713

 

 

Now that you mention it I do feel like the show abandoned a lot of layers to Alex and to Clay in the last years. I think James Horan, who is probably my favorite Clay, embodied them most, but they still could have been there even without him. Alex mostly just becomes a vehicle for Randolph Mantooth's charisma once he returns, especially since they did such a shoddy job bringing Egypt back. What I've seen of Ava those last few years doesn't really draw me in as much either. 

[OzFrog]

I just watched the 1992 episode that was on the Facebook page. It took me a while to recognise the lady playing Bonnie Rescott (Ally’s mother), and then it clicked - she also played Calla Matthews (Lillian’s sister) on Guiding Light in the mid 80s. What other stuff has she done daytime wise?

[DRW50]

 

Someone said her last role was on OLTL as Eve McBain. Around the time of her Loving appearances she was also on ATWT as "Apple Annie," or whatever her name was - some baking magnate who was Linc Lafferty's bio mom.

[slick jones]

LISBY LARSON

 

SEARCH FOR TOMORROW       Victoria Parker    1979

TEXAS              Paige Marshall (Carrington) Wheeler  1980-82

ANOTHER  WORLD     Paige Marshall   1980

THE CATLINS   Vanessa Mahoney Crane Lockwood   1983

ONE LIFE TO LIVE    Annabelle (interviewed Tina)   1984 or 1985

GUIDING LIGHT      Calla Tyler Matthews       1985-87

ANOTHER WORLD       Pippa Palmer      1990

AS THE WORLD TURNS       Mary Hopkins Campbell   1993-94

LOVING     Bonnie ___ Rescott Davis          1994

ONE LIFE TO LIVE    Leigh Malone          2000

                                    Eve McBain     2006

 

Larson bounced around.

[Forever8]

@DRW50 You wouldn't have Christine's exit interview would you? 

 

I want to say Christine had her child before she went back to show in 1991. 

 

@dc11786 I'm always interested reading your in-depth analysis on the show. If Loving Murders never happened how would you've reshaped the show?