Vee

True, but I did mention that. Like I said, these villains all start out with big moves then meander around doing vague stuff so FV doesn't have to fire anyone he likes. Meanwhile Sonny and Jason do nothing.

People say it's crazy Jason did not take the shot on Cullum when he had it and they're right. I don't need these guys to be the same tiresome godlike tryhards they were in the 2000s, I hated them often then, but there has to be a happy medium that does not make them and the show just ridiculous. I remember when Cyrus bombed the Floating Rib, killed all those people and put Lulu in a coma and Laura vowed to finish him (before learning he was her brother). Then she did nothing to him. No one did, not Sonny or Jason, not anyone. Villains did improbably hang around from time to time in the 2000s (the Zaccharas, Manny Ruiz) but things still happened. They made big moves on each other and some would die or go away, or they would checkmate each other with various dealings, like Sonny foolishly marrying Claudia for power to unite the warring families. Now all Sonny does is sit around worrying about Laura and Britt and Lucas, or give Gio life advice. I would sooner see younger, newer characters moved into these active action roles, and Jason should be in the (cleaned-up) WSB or a contractor for them for real. He basically is these last two years anyway, for all the stuff he's done with/for them instead of Sonny. But regardless you've got to stop letting these villains just roll everyone in town perpetually, whether it's Sonny or Anna or Laura or whoever else. I am tired of the scenes where Mayor Laura kowtows to Cueball.

Yeah, I think the very first plan re: Vicki (per Art Wallace's bible) may have been for her to be the granddaughter of the former Collinwood butler "Hanscomb," whose daughter Betty was supposed to have had an affair with Paul Stoddard. Later they concluded she had to be Liz's daughter, but it never made it officially to the screen. I did not remember the plan for Joe/Carolyn marrying. I had also forgotten the house by the sea, which was a clear signpost re: Vicki and Liz. I loved that whole plot element with the house.

All of the post-2015 villains are like this. They hem and haw and stay forever because Frank or his pet writers fall in love with a character actor they hired (Jeff Kober, Wes Ramsey, Carlo Rota, etc.) and want to keep them, so after a big violent splash they do nothing but make vague moves for months or years and somehow Sonny and Jason do nothing against them either, because Frank wants to keep these actors around. And it makes Sonny, Jason and their crew, to say nothing of Anna and the PCPD, look pathetic. That's a big part of why you have Sonny (and often Jason) reduced to a talk-to these days. Sonny's major role on the show is being a sounding board or recap device for other people's storylines or commenting on what other people (Britt, Lucas, etc.) are planning to do about Sidwell. Even Jason finally making a (failed) move of his own on Cullum was merely Jason taking his own initiative to try and help the woman he's sleeping with. It was not a mob operation and did not strike directly at Sidwell. Given recent times I think a couple rumors may be true that they very nearly put Jason officially into the WSB before deciding to bring Britt back and pivoting the story to focus on her and her annoying family. For all intents and purposes major story focuses on these villains and the WSB, not the mob. Sonny and the mob are an afterthought. That's not to say I want Sonny Hospital again. I think there can be some mob drama from time to time but I don't want it to consume the show anew. And I don't think Mo can really handle any heavy lifting at this point, so I'm not weeping for the lack of heavy Sonny action. But the way they hang the show on these antagonists just makes the lead characters look pathetic and ineffectual. I knew it would happen with Sidwell too once he came to town. It's been over a year since this man deep-fried Michael and they've done nothing.

I know some people like her! But potentially bringing her back for a visit (or recasting) is not exactly some huge casting or character coup lol. She was a C-tier/soft B character at best. She is never going to be some exciting get.

It hasn't.

She's too young.

You wildly overstate the popularity of Sasha.

We have been saying that for over six months. I'll believe it when I see it. I think they are too wedded/loyal to some of the original cast. But we're not dealing with Ryan's Hope, AMC '70 or OLTL '68 here. And both the latter shows had folks who dropped out days, weeks or months in, or in at least one case (Sharon Laughlin as Viki Lord) before the first episode aired. If someone (Hayley, whoever) actually drops a major body like Tomas then I'll buy that the worm has started to turn at the show. I think BTG has a pretty good shot at a renewal, but it's time to dust off someone else (Kay Alden, whoever) to help them gas up these stories. And if it's either EP or creative preciousness about the characters, the action or concerns about positive representation that is slowing things up then it's time to consolidate power. As @Khan once said about the Generations EP change. I don't think BTG's too-many EPs are going anywhere and I don't think it can or should sever itself from the NAACP link, but however they do it it's time to get tougher with these stories and families.

That is absolutely what happened. I could see Sasha returning for Robert's funeral obviously and for some drama with Willow and returning to the whole Daisy thing, but I wouldn't keep her around longer than a few weeks or a couple months. It would be a plot thing. I'd recast if I had to, I really don't care about the character or actor.

This is another predictable turn the gun on myself moment for me, caroline. I refuse to choose between Jacinda and Sasha for Rory Gibson. Refuse! There are better options out there. I suspect they are kind of pivoting on Jacinda because they've realized maybe this dayplayer doesn't have the forever juice - I got that sense back in January. That's the only reason they'd have her end up with Kristina, his sister.

I've said this a lot, but I think part of that is the influence of the B&B/Brad Bell (or just Bell family-adjacent) school of writing. I used to hear a lot of similar grand statements or character declarations on B&B 10-15 years ago, bordering on classic Y&R in their arch style if not the same quality or merit. MVJ worked at B&B for a number of years after leaving GH. B&B has survived despite or perhaps at times because of its formula, and she may have adopted some of that technique for BTG feeling it has kept their audience. I don't think it works for her or for BTG.

I think the bigger issue is that the show is clearly angling story around how great and strong a person Jacinda is when she's actually the most tame and boring hooker ever, even on this show which has hosted many a sex worker with hearts of gold. Olivia's role in this story (if we can call it a story) is to be the hectoring, judgmental character in the wrong, when for me the reality is not so much about siding with Olivia vs. the fact that Jacinda is just not the dayplayer homecoming queen they now want her to be. Especially not after that court testimony! Anyway, if they can fast forward to her and Kristina cucking Michael and writing them both out I'd be good with that. I think she is a waste of space and of Rory Gibson.

Bouncing on it crazy style a minimum of 20 times! I'll never forget the look on Michael and Kristina's faces.

She should've been fired five years ago.

Don't let @Darn hear you say that! He lights that ho up in my phone 4 times a week. It's like The Scarlet Letter. But tbh it's much less about Jacinda being a sex worker than about her being a boring and often self-righteous one. But like I said before, if the show is calling her a hooker I'm gonna keep calling her a hooker. I don't care!

I would not write Leslie out in that way myself. Unlike Hayley who I think could come back for future on/off stints but needs to leave the regular canvas, I don't think TMG needs to become a recurring player as she's been one of the breakout stars. The issue is simply making Leslie pay for some of her crimes. She could easily do a white-collar Martha Stewart prison or a sanitarium arc as part of that while remaining on contract. The other problem with what they've done with Leslie is how janky the writing can be day to day. Leslie vacillates between a) genuine tears and emotion about her hard-done life, upbringing and struggles as a young parent and b) mustache twirling camp often in the same episode. Plenty of soap villains or antiheroes have fluctuated from day to day, but there is no real transition for Leslie allowed in the writing. She is either in Gear A or Gear B depending on the day or even just the scene, like flipping a switch. TMG can play all of it, but the writing has not allowed for nuance. There's simply a) "here is a scene where Leslie is being wacky and conniving" or b) "here is a scene where Leslie is showing pathos, sympathize with her". It's awkward. Like, say what you will about Ron Carlivati's messy work at his other soaps but even he allowed some air and subtlety between his scenes where he expected people to feel for his crazier villain characters at GH or OLTL. It's not great when I'm looking back at his less than stellar tenure with Robin Mattson's Heather Webber or Kathleen Gati's evil Dr. Obrecht and the beats where he'd allow them to be human that I used to roll my eyes at, and suddenly I'm thinking 'yeah, that's what Leslie needs.' tbqh I wonder if it's an NAACP note.

I see it the opposite way. I think a big problem with the show is its constantly telling people why the characters are the way they are or why they do what they do. The dialogue is often heavily expositional or leans towards grand pronouncements about who this person is (often with full names!), why they feel this way, etc. That's just not interesting to me.

Nothing short of a neutron bomb will permanently remove Rafe from this show. No one over 30 is ever allowed to leave for good.

She really has become an incredible actress since we used to clown her daily on AMC. I feel bad about it. She's been absolutely searing in a score of genre films (mostly horror) and now The Pitt.

I believe it did. I think Gottlieb and co. have said it was meant to culminate and Sloan to die much earlier. They knew the larger story they were doing at least by '93. Robin Strasser has credited herself for going to Erika, talking about the roots of DID lying in abuse, and then claims they went as a duo to Michael Malone to pitch the Victor reveal, which Robin later regretted because she felt it was best that Dorian be the one who killed Victor. Robin was back in early '93, so assuming she's accurate and not getting her facts fuzzy (which can happen) the timeline would be then. You can see hints of the story as early as summer '93 at least, IMO. In the 25th anniversary episodes in July, in order to save C.J. and Al they have to tear down the walls to re-access Victor's secret room, hidden for many years since the '80s (which will then figure into the DID story in 1995). Viki has an intense, visceral and almost terrified reaction to this which seems too much (and which mirrors how she reacts when Dorian lays everything out for her in early '95). I think that was one of the first pennies to drop. And yeah, as a kid who grew up watching Dark Shadows on the Sci-Fi Channel at the same time as I was watching OLTL in the '90s there were a lot of gothic similarities. The fact that the Viki/Dorian story stretched back 20+ years fascinated me and was a big part of what had me hooked on the show.

Have you seen his other two MST3Ks? They absolutely roast him in Deathstalker.

I think the show is fairly character-driven, and I agree with others that MVJ (or someone BTS, anyway) is overly preoccupied with the show not being too driven by plot or stunt action, possibly c/o her years under the Brian Frons regime at GH. She watched the Wards she helped create get wiped out there too. To say nothing of her years dealing with the Forresters on B&B. The bigger issue is not whether a show is character-driven. It is that many of the characters who are driving daily episodes are not that interesting. Or rather, they haven't been allowed to be. They often speak in platitudes and grand pronouncements (or therapy-speak) while they always reset back to loving their family, their sister, their cousin or spouse or whoever they're with. Eva and Izaiah should be hot, heavy and volatile but they are played like Kristy dating a boy in The Babysitters Club. Jacob and Naomi should be beyond crashing out by now but she vacillates between whining about him and pining for him depending on the day while homeboy is wandering these brick-walled streets looking like Lobot from Empire Strikes Back and telling everyone he is not undercover! (Lobot a.k.a. Jacob) I think the show has good bones, many good actors and a lot of raw potential. I agree with @DeliaIrisFan that a lot of the expository, etc. dialogue has been a huge issue from Day 1; it would be one thing if we were getting the long, involved almost one-act play scenes Claire Labine's team used to write with MVJ and co. at GH in the '90s, but nothing here is on par with that, even the better dialogued scenes (which do exist, there's just not enough of them). I think there's also a very real (and valid) concern about what images they're presenting with the characters with a predominantly Black and Black-led soap, and that may be part of the stumbling blocks in story so far. But on the other end of the spectrum I definitely don't think there is any answer to be found in getting rid of TMG or Leslie lol, one of the few plot activators on the show. The new segment of the audience unused to watching annual year-round soaps will get over living with a regular villain. But I do think it is past time she paid for Laura, and I think someone needs to allow many of the rest of these characters to stop being purely sacrosanct or at times idealized, and let them start getting much messier and much more flawed. And for Christ's sake, end the Hayley story. This should've reached a climax two months ago. Enough.

I think Alexandra Moltke also couldn't stand him, but it's been a long time and I may be wrong.

Maybe a bit soon for this one as the eps have not been released yet, but Patsy Pease (Kimberly Brady, DAYS), David Mendenhall (Mike Webber, GH) and the late great Thom Christopher (Carlo Hesser, OLTL/Dante Partou, LOV, etc.) will all be appearing in one of this year's new Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes. Their '86 Roger Corman film Space Raiders is getting the MST treatment. This will be Thom's third appearance on MST3K - camp never dies.