DramatistDreamer

Ireland and the other holdouts have finally relented.

Some of those episodes are, in fact, on YouTube and yes, it is obvious that Whit was "going down" in that very soapy set up. I don't have questions about that. I do have questions about what appeal Whit had to Lisa a woman who clearly had no need of his money or reputation to get on in life. Way before he was being set up, Whit was not nice. His relationship with Brian was on and off, Kirk was convinced that his father never really liked him and even Diana, who supposedly was his favorite, he talked down to, as if he thought her incapable of making a single sensible decision in life. Now, since Kirk was was indeed his biological son, raised in his household, as his son, regardless of his maternity, honestly, I would expect him to be included in the will, despite the sh*tty treatment by Whit. In reality, Whit treated all of his kids somewhat sh*tty. Just based on treatment alone, you'd think that Craig was his heir. He seemed to be the only one Whit liked. Anybody answered that question about Jillian? I realize that Brian also dated a Juliet (seriously dated) not long before, which is a bit odd.

I just don't get the appeal of Whit. I realize that aspects of the backstory that are retconned but since there are so few episodes of Whit and Lisa together as a couple posted on YouTube, I wanted to know whether there was more of an indication that Whit had some other aspects to his personality besides barking at his children and the occasional cutting remark to Lisa. I just don't see any romantic chemistry. My other question was about Jillian and Brian and Jillian and Barbara's obvious souring relationship and when exactly that happened and why?

Whit was such a meanie, I am honestly looking at these old episodes and wondering what Lisa saw in him. I appreciate that the show would build a rivalry between Lisa and Lucinda based on each woman's devotion to preserving her husband's memory but Whit seemed gruff and coarse. He didn't even seem to treat his own children with much regard. People make fun of Earl but at least there was some kind of charm there and chemistry between Earl and Lisa. Also, does anyone remember how long Brian and Jillian dated? I seem to remember some miscommunication between them and Brian and Barbara, who had a falling out and Barbara scolded Brian for what she believed was leading Jillian on but down the road when Brian and Shannon were dating, it seemed as though Jillian and Barbara didn't like each other one bit. I think Jillian even made a cutting remark to Barbara about being glad that Brian was with Shannon and not Barbara, after Barbara implied that Jillian must be hurt to see Shannon and Brian together. I wonder why and how they became so antagonistic toward each other. There are no episodes to show that trajectory. I know that's not Jillian in this episode.

You're welcome. Just a few ideas, in short. Gaslighting is an apt description @DRW50. It really feels that way.

On a previous post, I already gave my ideas on Lucinda (and John, by extension). My basic premise is the idea that there should be a final "ending" was not ideal. I compared the finale episodes for AMC and ATWT and gave my thoughts on why AMC, despite some clumsy execution provided a better ending than ATWT and why this gave AMC some viability and a chance for at least one reboot, something that is unlikely to ever happen for ATWT. In short, AMC left their characters viable, while ATWT completely put their characters out to pasture. Never "sunset" your characters, unless someone dies in the end. Even Thelma and Louise left a little room for "What If?" in the end, despite the fact that intellectually, we all knew they went over that cliff. (As preposterous as it was, that ending actually inspired talk of sequels). To be as brief and as descriptive as I can, If I had a chance to write storyline arcs to the finale for Barbara, for example, I would give her options, I wouldn't just shove her with Henry as a "happily ever after". I would spoil her for choice. At least a year before the finale, I would have Barbara relaunch BRO (or whatever they wanted to call it). Have Barbara be a driven designer having her own design house. We don't have to see runway but see her in the process of making sketches, discussing fabric, cut and debuting collections in Milan, London, etc. (Paul can make the trips abroad, returning with rave reviews), have there be so much interest that she is drawing notice from other fashion houses to do collaborations have Eric Forrester be interested in her (perhaps for more reasons than professional). He makes an offer to Barbara which is tempting but Barbara decides that this is not the right time in her life for such a monumental change that could uproot her very stable life, Eric, convinced they will work together, urges her to give it more thought. As Barbara and Henry grow closer and eventually get engaged with plans to marry soon, a surprise return from Barbara's past comes back into her life and unwittingly crashes her big engagement party, right in the middle of Bob Hughes's toast, which causes Barbara to reconsider whether her life is as steady, stable and as sure as she thought. Eric, hearing about what happened at the engagement party suggests that she come to L.A. for awhile, give herself time to process the recent upheaval and work with him on that collaborative collection with FC, married or not, he believes they would make a dynamic team). Of course, there would be conversations with Henry, who stands by her and hopes that this is a momentary obstacle to their impending nuptials (although Henry doesn't see divulge that Vienna Hyatt has contacted him, offering her support to him and more). This surprise "guest" from Barbara's past also also offers Barbara a window into a past, before she acquired all the "baggage" she now has, as this person remembers her from a time when she was free from scandal and judgement. I have my ideas on how I would wrap on that, if I ever have the time to sit down and write that, I just might put it in writing. Lucinda, I wrote some of that piece but I would definitely write her as looking to groom a successor, her own "wunderkind" to run Worldwide, while, of course, still very much holding onto the reigns at the company. The best option would have been Bryant, which she always envisioned taking over from the day he was born (there are actual clips of her saying this), and this would create good conflict with Bryant's parents. The problem of TIIC killing off Bryant could have been solved in true soap fashion, and I have already posted what I would write (anybody remember this?) as a solution. But yeah, I would never "sunset" these characters. Keep them viable, give them options because one never knows.

Considering the fact that AT&T have been bad actor almost consistently for years, I won't hold my breath on that one.

Hasn't this country always been kind of terrible though? Genocide, slavery, exploitation... it's just that the veneer of gentility, fairness and upward mobility has been scraped away.

I minded, namely because Lucinda and Barbara were once feminist icons (daytime, which was not unproblematic, but still) and they ended on such a conventional note-unfortunate, imo. Had they been the characters they ended up being when I first saw them as a little girl, I would never have continued watching that show, tbh. So yeah, as a woman, who grew up watching these "uncommon women" (to quote late playwright Wendy Wasserstein) as a little girl who grew to write drama, the idea of it was disappointing. Thankfully, I waited a year before watching the final episodes on YT, so I wasn't as invested in the series as I would have been when I was a faithful viewer.

There were many ways, they could have built intrigue as a final "see what you could've had, P&G/CBS?" finger in the eye to detractors, had they cared.

She could also have been thinking that having Martha reprise the role would have freed up some time for her, that she could've spent auditioning for new roles, since the series was all but over at that point. It would've been a win for her as well. I think Casey had decided to go to law school at the last minute, which made little sense, given his academic trajectory and the interests he had in music and hospitality. I could have seen him becoming an entrepreneur in the mold of his grandmother, maybe even apprenticing to one day take over a few of her businesses. That would be an aspect of generational continuity. I don't mind Parker becoming a cop but couldn't they have had written a more 21st century take on it? Maybe a forensic pathologist or forensic detective? CSI was such a huge hit for CBS back then, I'm surprised they didn't try to incorporate any of that shine. Did Andy ever return? Since Kim actually owned the house (if you remember Bob moved into her house after they married), it should have been handed over to Andy and Chris and Andy could have taken ownership of the house. Maybe he and Denise agreed that while she builds up her dance studio, he would take over custodial parent duties with Hope. To see Andy with his teenage daughter in tow, interacting with her grandparents could have been good. Even better if Hope were interested in medicine. Oh boy, the future clashes between Andy and his father over that one!

Yes, Holden and Lily break up to make up, which is why their "ending" simply felt like the latest in an ongoing cycle, rather than an end to anything. Yes, Bob was retiring (which he could have done perfectly well in Oakdale), and that should have set off a stethoscope race for the top seat, with Emily encouraging her mother to grab it and Lucinda convincing John of the opportunity to finally run the hospital and shape its future his way, without the interference from Bob Hughes (but plenty of input from her, would be John's sarcastic reply). Lisa should have had many to choose from, she had chemistry with a number of characters over the years, Joe Bailey, who was once Tom's boss at the crime commission and Jerry Halperin, the fashion clothing distributor that had a falling out with Barbara. Or it could be someone brand new. Lisa could have tried speed dating and any number of 21st century dating techniques, had Casey or someone help her build her online dating profile. Lisa was always a character surrounded by youth and embracing the new, which is how we should have seen her doing at the final months of the series, instead of the nothingburger that she ended up with.

Cheapened is an interesting word. The endings for every character was cheapened in the end. I think the staging of those last scenes taking place in practically a hallway made to look like a threshold of a doorstep certainly didn't help matters. The actress was always miscast, imo, it almost didn't matter by the end, but I tried to look at the ending story, at that point. Perhaps if Byrne or even *gasps* Rattray or heck Lucy Deakins had reprised the role, perhaps I would have focused as much on the characters as the story trajectory of Lily and Holden. If anything, I was able to analyze it more clinically, without any hint of sentimentality, because I felt none.

Ideally when you write an end for a series with such a long history and legacy, it should be written in a way, that even at it's end, it follows the aspect of a continuing story, one that people actually would want to pick up with these characters or continue them. Barbara landing at Forrester. John and Lucinda co-chairs of that board, wondering if Lucinda will convince John to again take the reigns at Memorial hospital or will Susan become the hospital's first woman chief of staff and which Lucinda would have wanted to prevent. Lisa, the romantic should have been exploring the then still new world of online dating for seniors. There should have been intrigue to the very last drop.

ATWT didn't need a happy ending, per se but it needed a satisfying ending which longtime viewers, those who had stuck with the show for decades especially, didn't get. Personally, I didn't need a stereotypical happy ending but I didn't want or need one that would ring so hollow and superficial. Many would say Bob and Kim had a happy ending, but I would disagree. They were sent off to Arizona, was it? Wasn't that were Chris and Nancy were shipped off to when the show decided they had no use for either character when Bunim, et al, decided to court a younger demo? Many people might claim John and Lucinda got a happy ending but I thought having Lucinda, a self-described "business mogul" pick up and traipse after John to Amsterdam was weak sauce. If anything she should have been scheming to get John a emeritus teaching position at Oakdale University lecturing Pre-Med students and them both as co-chairs of the hospital board of directors. Barbara and Henry. Had Barbara Ryan followed the natural trajectory that had been started in the 80s and 90s, Erica Kane would've had serious competition for "Bad Boss B*tch" of daytime. If any character should have kept viewers guessing to the very end and beyond, it should've been Barbara. Every bada$s character had an "Our World" moment- Lisa left Oakdale for Chicago for a year, Erica tried on Hollywood for size, and Barbara should have looked to take BRO global. Maybe do a cross-over (like was done with Allison Stewart but much better) where Eric Forrester makes her an offer to collaborate on a capsule collection, or something. At least make it interesting where Babs has some conflict over whether to marry and settle down or seek a new business venture with a famous design house. The Tom and Margo house swap was low rent and low budget type of sad. Lily and Holden was clearly not meant to be a happy ending but imo, at least it was the one scenario that at least, seemed true to their tumultuous and back and forth history. And all of the stories along the way, in the final months with Ben Harris and Mike Kasnoff just seemed like austerity storylines, truly drive-by depression caliber storytelling. I wouldn't blame the average viewer for being relieved to see the show end by then. They hadn't really written any compelling reasons for it to continue.

Some essential yet overlooked aspects pertaining to the type of climate and circumstances that allowed an Ozy to exist. These sections jumped out at me, as they are fairly obvious and sad. The fact that certain advertisers have keyword block lists that include words like "Black people" is the reason how/why we get a smoke and mirrors operation like Ozy.

Fans of that show were rootin tootin mad but as a writer, I understood it and thought it was clever (albeit messy in the execution) because it generated intrigue and lots of conversation, whereas ATWT was unquestionably final and mournful. Agnes Nixon and everyone connected to writing and producing the soap through its finale on network television likely planted several seeds for the show's revival. ATWT should have at least sprinkled some seeds of a possible renewal, but they didn't.

Frannie hadn't gotten a mention at all in the last decade until the last few months of the show's run (ironically, I had stopped watching by that time). They wanted to put a feather in their caps by bringing in a star, even as a veritable daypart. Tight budgets are one thing, but they didn't even ask Prinz, did they? The last actor who played Donald, hadn't he died the previous year? That would've been excusable but it's inexcusable not to have at least asked Prinz to make an appearance sometime in the final year, not when you brought back Ben Harris and Mike Kasanoff, oh hell no!! I agree with @j swift, indifference is the worst thing a writer and a show can do to a character/actor. What the show did to longtime veterans toward the end of the series' run was far more egregious. Personally, in Steve's case, I don't think it was personal for the actor or the character. Actors want to leave for greener pastures and they have every right to do so. The show has to try to finesse an exit that is dynamic for viewers and imo, the best, most interesting way to create such a dynamic is to draw on a character trait or flaw that is ingrained in the character's DNA and create events that unfold from that. Steve always had a murky past and he was always portrayed as an outsider with securities, even in the best of times, so why not use that to usher the character off the campus, and leave things settled but somewhat unsettling, which gives an opening for the possibility of bringing the character back in the future (even years down the line) to deal with "unfinished business" left behind in Oakdale? Had Marland lived to celebrate a decade of consistently being at the helm of the writing, it is most likely Steve would have made his way back eventually, for one reason or another. Runyeon has said in interviews that it was his choice to leave and we can only guess at his motivations? Was it displeasure at no longer being regarded as the super-couple with the most storyline and media attention? Was he disenchanted with the show after losing Meg Ryan as his onscreen partner? We all can only guess. No one is an open book as to their true feelings. Steve and Betsy's wedding probably garnered the highest ratings of any ATWT episode in history and Marland was unlikely to dismiss that fact, even though, of course, it makes sense that he wanted as much of an ensemble show as he could muster, which is why I believe he left the door open for the character by sending him to Greece for several months before beginning to sever the ties between Steve and Betsy. Even then, there is room to exonerate Steve, or overturn his conviction years down the line and bring him back briefly for Dani's sake (a sure shot better than that disgusting story they had her in with Craig, which I still refuse to lay eyes on-for fear I would want to pluck them out of my head). At the end of it's run, the show chose to try to tie up every loose end in a near little bow, which ensured that no other network would ever pick up the series. Why bother when there's no story left to tell? One aspect I applaud All My Children for when they ended their run: they didn't tie up everything in a tidy bow-- they left room for some loose ends and uncertainty when they ended their run on ABC on a virtual cliffhanger, which I realize many fans hated, but in all likelihood, it is reason why producers keep wanting to do reboots and retelling of AMC, unlike ATWT. Among the viewers of the show, in real time, they were hella popular and it was a stroke of genius, since P&G and the show's other sponsors were likely trying to appeal the most to women in Anne Sward's age group. I was talking about members of this message board.

Um, whut?😂

We may be in the minority on this board for liking the pairing of Casey and Lyla. Many don't seem to like Lyla much (or perhaps Sward's portrayal of the character). It seems they may have pulled the trigger fairly early because Casey and Frannie didn't really progress past the "friend zone", which seemed to frustrate Casey a little bit at times before he and Lyla eventually became intimately involved. I do wonder what we'd have seen if the writing had taken Frannie and Casey a bit more seriously as a pairing before having a break up and then putting them each with other romantic prospects, but I guess Seth and Lyla beckoned and sometimes you've got to strike while the iron is hot or the story trajectories risk becoming muddled, and Maryland had so many irons in the fire in 86 and 87, he probably didn't want to risk prolonging the inevitable for fear the chemistry might cool. It's easy to see why Moore was brought back to the show (should have been for a decent story arc, even a brief one). She was a bonified mega-star by then and the execs could tout her appearance as a veritable feather in their collective caps. They should have tried to also get Rosemary Prinz to reprise her Penny Hughes role, but I doubt they really tried because only the long-time fans would have really recognized her and they couldn't generate the buzz they got over years for Moore's appearance (they still brag about it). Prinz was on the show before Din Hastings' arrival, no? It felt wrong not to have Penny Hughes, one have of daytime drama's first big romantic couple not make an appearance to mark the serial's ending.

Haha, I remember a few those 84 episodes where they attempted and flopped at trying to make Frost a Meg Ryan clone, lol. Yeah, ruins of a castle could have meant anything, but Brian definitely owned the land. That sounds willfully convoluted to prep the offbeat idea of moving a huge @ss castle all the way from Edinburgh to Oakdale. It often occurs to me that Marland was leaving open the possibility of having the character and/or actor to return. He did this with Marx, he offered this to Hillary Bailey Smith until the Execs wanted her role recast and couldn't wait, and he likely did it for a few other actors, he was well liked by so many of the actors for a reason. Betsy was sort of seeing Rod in a quasi-platonic way when Steve finally served her with divorce papers sometime in autumn 87, probably close to the time his dream house in Ruxton Hills went up in flames. The dream house caught fire courtesy of James Stenbeck and his flunky Nick Castello (portrayed by Rick Giolito, Frost's husband IRL).

Steve definitely went to the pokey in 87. He left town in 86 and that was the last onscreen appearance by Runyeon in the role. The separation and divorce took place sometime during late 87, I believe. It didn't all happen in 86, the severing of ties between Steve and Betsy was stretched out over the course of a year. The burning of the Ruxton Hills house sealed things. 86 was a hot summer, for sure, for many characters. I had to laugh at the amount of times John Dixon implied that Lily was "fast" and was trying to seduce Dusty, meanwhile mistakenly believing that Meg would be a good influence somehow. One fun argument, full of banter between John and Lucinda, where Lucinda playfully insists that it's always the man's fault in these cases, while John scoffed and questioned how someone who is seen as a predator can make such an accusation. What a dance those two engaged in.

Did you see the episode where Lily hits him in the face with her whip? There was nothing semi-overt about that. In an interview, Martha Byrne's stated that Holden was originally supposed to be paired with Emily (which briefly happened, down the road), but as they shared scenes together, Marlan who had been reluctant to pair them, due to her age, eventually changed his mind. The plane with Betsy and Craig crashed sometime in mid or late June 87, a little over a month after Craig and Sierra had their long awaited wedding. Everyone assumed Craig didn't survive... except Sierra who refused to believe it. Steve had gotten into trouble and possibly arrested, but I'm not sure he went to prison yet. Betsy originally went to Greece because she wasn't hearing directly from Steve and she called Craig because she was afraid of some shady people who Steve had become associated with (Steve wasn't there) and Craig literally rode in to the rescue. He had chartered a flight for he and Betsy to fly to another Greek island (to find Steve) when the plane went down. There are many missing episodes in the spring and summer of 87, in particular) and it's been awhile since I have seen those episodes. I'm confused about what happened to Whit McColl's house. I thought that went to Brian when Whit died. Perhaps Lisa was still living there but by 86, it looked like she was living in a different place, one that didn't resemble Whit's house. With so many missing episodes, recollection of events become disjointed and muddled.

Was it a castle or a stately house? From what I remember, and I admit, my memory is not razor sharp on this aspect- when Brian was tricked into selling the land to Duncan (who had promised to sign the annulment papers/divorce papers so that Brian and Shannon could marry), Duncan moved the McKechnie castle over from Scotland. Preposterous, I know. There was a scene later in that year where Duncan explains to an awe-struck Paul Stenbeck how he blew up the bridge that used to be there when Brian owned the property to construct a moat, because he thought it was more fitting for people to need boats to ferry in between the castle and the mainland. That sounds plausible, as there was a long gap between when Steve left Oakdale and when he was arrested and found guilty of drug smuggling and sentenced to prison time. In a way, it sounds similar to Gregg Marx leaving around the New Year 1987 and the character disappearing until the final quarter of the year. In that case, Maryland was hoping that Marx would change his mind about leaving and return, which he didn't unfortunately. It is possible, that ego and all, there was the slightest hope that Runyeon would elect to extend his time but that didn't happen. I've read at least one interview where Runyeon made it sound like it was his decision to leave.