I talked about this privately and publicly a couple years back. I deeply hated the writing and really was infuriated by the deification of the character (and Natalie, who Dena Higley clearly hated, suffered as well in this era), but I always liked REG despite having major issues with Evangeline's development. And the fact is she was frontburner, and that was exceptional. And while things could and did turn around for a white lead like Natalie post-Higley, the fact is it would never happen for a woman who looked like Evangeline (or Layla) today on daytime, and that's crazy and unconscionable.

 

I'll repost some of what I said then:

 

Quote

Regardless of my feelings about the writing for Evangeline I always felt Renee Elise Goldsberry was a beautiful and talented woman poorly served by a badly written role, and I abhorred the racist attacks on REG. (Though I also didn't see all of them - I was not an active part of the Jolie fanbase, as I completely gave up on John in 2004 and grew to despise him; I wanted better for Natalie.)

 

What I didn't fully appreciate at that time with Evangeline - due to having naively taken for granted OLTL and ABC's then-slightly-better history with black characters up to that point in the mid-2000s - was just how revolutionary it was for a black female to be caught between several key leading men in frontburner story. I felt they could have better story and characters in those roles, but that isn't the takeaway today. The fact is a black female-led triangle is still a shocking image for American daytime, probably even more today sadly than in 2005. They didn't dare let Hillary on Y&R get between the white men; they killed her first. GH has next to no black canvas to speak of, and OLTL purged theirs a few years after unnecessarily killing Evangeline, which I always thought was a mistake.

 

For me what I take away from the ugly, awful fan wars over those men is more that shining moment in time - however badly written and characterized I felt it was. It was an accident of rewrites that made it happen, but it did happen. It has never come again on ABC or American network soaps, and it probably won't.

Edited June 3, 20205 yr by Vee

6 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I also have to give a mention to ATWT for the absolutely atrocious treatment of the Denise storyline. What should have been a compelling baby swap storyline, on a show that was competent and more willing to not stack the deck, instead became the perfect, loving white wife and mother vs a black stripper and crack addict who sold her child. As if that wasn't enough, they had the character go around fighting with people for most of her first months on the show, complete with a terrible scene where she went after Camille for being "high yellow." I don't think the audience ever forgave Denise or gave her a chance after that introduction. 

 

Not sure I agree with you on this one. To be sure, the storyline had its issues, but I was recently rewatching some 1999 ATWT and Ben/Denise/Camille are all very frontburner... more frontburner than I'd remembered, even. I recently watched one where Denise had a flashback to her one night stand with Andy and it was pretty sexy! And, I mean, they did give her a child with the son of Kim and John. Give them some credit.

 

On the flip side, maybe the sad thing is I grew so used to the shaft CBS daytime has given black characters for 20 years now that seeing a CBS soap do the bare minimum was shocking/impressive to me.

59 minutes ago, Vee said:

What I didn't fully appreciate at that time with Evangeline - due to having naively taken for granted OLTL and ABC's then-slightly-better history with black characters up to that point in the mid-2000s - was just how revolutionary it was for a black female to be caught between several key leading men in frontburner story. I felt they could have better story and characters in those roles, but that isn't the takeaway today. The fact is a black female-led triangle is still a shocking image for American daytime, probably even more today sadly than in 2005.

ITA. I remember people excoriating the writing (because Higley), but Evangeline’s prominence was unprecedented for a black character of any gender in daytime. If she’d been white, she’d have had a whole family built around her.

1 hour ago, Faulkner said:

What do people think of Evangeline on OLTL with the benefit of hindsight? We all remember the ugliness of the Jovan/Jolie fan wars, and I believe this caused a lot of anger:

 

 

It’s just weird how much Evangeline dominated OLTL in the mid-2000s (alongside Jessica/Natalie/Blair), and how easily she was simply dismissed and forgotten. And it was so clear the show considered John/Natalie endgame, as they valued Natalie more as a character.

It was a 3 way tug of war, Crave/Tangeline/Jovan, known as the Van Wars on ABC mbs

5 hours ago, titan1978 said:

Thank you for the info.  That sounds awful.

It really was. Megan McTavish did a horrific number on GL in 1996 it was one of many trashy abhorrent storylines that aired that summer until her firing. 

On 6/1/2020 at 8:44 PM, SFK said:

 

How explicit was OLTL about the Siegels' faith? I'm thinking about how some years later on AW, Iris' mother Sylvie's Judaism was "heavily inferred" but never outright stated. I can imagine clunky "safe" dialogue using phrases like "interfaith marriage" and whatnot, but I'm curious how often the word Jewish was uttered and how Agnes Nixon established their religion to begin with. Did the Siegels go to temple, observe high holidays?

@Paul Raven @vetsoapfan

 

At the beginning, when Agnes Nixon was writing the show, David Siegel was clearly portrayed as Jewish. He married the Irish-Catholic Eileen Riley with whom he had two children, Tim and Julie, however, and not a lot of emphasis was placed on Tim and Julie being half Jewish until ex-nun Jenny Wolek wanted to leave the church and marry him. Jenny's second cousin Vinnie Wolek disapproved of the idea based on religious grounds, but he was portrayed more as being opposed to Jenny breaking her vows to God rather than her marrying a man outside her faith.

On 6/1/2020 at 8:09 PM, mikelyons said:

Let's not forget that only OLTL has done any justice to Jewish characters.

 

Rick Edelstein very effectively wrote for the Jewish Bachman family on How to Survive a Marriage as well.

 

Of course, nobody but me even watched that show, LOL.🙄

I loved Evangeline, and I remember the awful comments about her on soap boards quite clearly.  I was so excited for her Broadway success, and angry at OLTL for letting her go.  She was a vital character during a terrible period on the show.

 

And reading @Vee’s post, it reminds me just how integral she was for a period there.  She was a lead character, and was fully involved in major stories on the show.  Certainly GH and AMC did not invest so much in black characters during that time, until Angie and Jesse returned to AMC.
 

I remember when she was no longer going to be on the show being so confused why. Stupid on ABC’s part- but this was also the era of the men being the focus on all three of their shows, and the women becoming so dependent on the men.

5 hours ago, juppiter said:

 

Not sure I agree with you on this one. To be sure, the storyline had its issues, but I was recently rewatching some 1999 ATWT and Ben/Denise/Camille are all very frontburner... more frontburner than I'd remembered, even. I recently watched one where Denise had a flashback to her one night stand with Andy and it was pretty sexy! And, I mean, they did give her a child with the son of Kim and John. Give them some credit.

 

On the flip side, maybe the sad thing is I grew so used to the shaft CBS daytime has given black characters for 20 years now that seeing a CBS soap do the bare minimum was shocking/impressive to me.

 

I appreciate the basic idea, but they just absolutely fumbled the execution. I remember the visceral hatred for Denise and how long it took for that to change - and by the time it did, the show had mostly given up on the character. 

11 hours ago, titan1978 said:

Certainly GH and AMC did not invest so much in black characters during that time, until Angie and Jesse returned to AMC.

It’s sad but I mentioned a while back that Jesse is the only black character whose death has been allowed to reverberate and matter through a soap’s history, due to his friendship with Tad (flashbacks, dream sequences) and Angie’s return on Loving and The City with the Jesse doppelgänger. I still can’t think of another. Of course, he came back alive, which is notable in its own way.

 

Neil on Y&R has already been forgotten (a reflection of his diminished role on the show prior to his passing), and he was played by a beloved award-winning actor whose untimely real-life death made international headlines. 

I fall on Bell spectrum in terms of the Bell/Nixon divide. I’m just more drawn to his aesthetic. But Agnes’s handling of American diversity was just infinitely better. There’s just no comparison, and that’s even taking into account Bell’s great stuff with Neil and Dru in the ‘90s.

The fact that she, the actors, network and show even did the story of Carla passing is incredible.  TV doesn’t often tackle this topic today!  The fact they told it so well that it still comes up in examination of daytime is worthy of praise, but then Agnes consistently followed it up on her other shows by having important black characters.

 

Just imagine how much better stories like that and others would have been over the years if more people of color had been mentored on the writing teams of these soaps!

 

Angie and Jesse were integral to AMC.  And when they came back it was like a missing piece was back in place and made it seem more like it should be.

When was the last time racism and systematic prejudice was tackled on soaps? In a thoughtful way?

 

The David Grant/Vinnie Morrison stuff on GL in 1993 from Curlee/Demorest? Even that story would never be done today. 

 

9 minutes ago, BetterForgotten said:

When was the last time racism and systematic prejudice was tackled on soaps? In a thoughtful way?

 

The David Grant/Vinnie Morrison stuff on GL in 1993 from Curlee/Demorest? Even that story would never be done today. 

 

Anyone remember TJ's being racially profiled at Wyndham's off screen on GH? It could've been a game changing story but as usual ABC and the rest of the TPTB didn't want to commit thoroughly to this story.

Edited June 3, 20205 yr by Forever8

7 minutes ago, BetterForgotten said:

When was the last time racism and systematic prejudice was tackled on soaps? In a thoughtful way?

 

The David Grant/Vinnie Morrison stuff on GL in 1993 from Curlee/Demorest? Even that story would never be done today. 

 

I know people thought RC’s JJ/Theo shooting story on DAYS was so great, even though he wrote it from the white cop’s perspective. But ohhhh he had Eli name-check Black Lives Matter. The bar has been lowered. At least it got James Reynolds an Emmy.

God, for 1993, this is so real and relevant for today. Such eloquent and frank dialogue (from Ross's monologue, to the judge, and then to David himself) would not be allowed on soaps today:

 

 

1 hour ago, BetterForgotten said:

God, for 1993, this is so real and relevant for today. Such eloquent and frank dialogue (from Ross's monologue, to the judge, and then to David himself) would not be allowed on soaps today:

 

 

That was a beautifully done story.

 

As an aside, seeing David Lee Russek as Sean on the classic episode of Y&R reminded me he played the dirty white cop who raped Toni (Rhonda Ross Kendrick) on AW in the mid-‘90s. I wonder how that story would be received today, as she had mistakenly accused the innocent Nick Hudson of the rape.

1 hour ago, titan1978 said:

 

The fact that she, the actors, network and show even did the story of Carla passing is incredible.  TV doesn’t often tackle this topic today!  The fact they told it so well that it still comes up in examination of daytime is worthy of praise, but then Agnes consistently followed it up on her other shows by having important black characters.

 

Totally. Yet Paul Rauch managed to erase all that rich history in a moment. (As great as AMC handled Angie/Jesse in the ‘80s, the other flagship ABC soaps OLTL and GH did a pitiful job in that decade.) I remember OLTL brought back Ed and Carla’s grandson for a brief run in the 2000s, but that’s as much as their legacy extended. Agnes Nixon’s continued involvement with AMC helped maintain its diversity.