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Racism and racial representation on soaps


Faulkner

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8 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

 

Totally. Yet Paul Rauch managed to erase all that rich history in a moment. (As great as AMC handled Angie/Jesse in the ‘80s, the other flagship ABC soaps OLTL and GH did a pitiful job in that decade.) I remember OLTL brought back Ed and Carla’s grandson for a brief run in the 2000s, but that’s as much as their legacy extended. Agnes Nixon’s continued involvement with AMC helped maintain its diversity.

The show always suffered when she was not involved with it.

 

I’ve only read about them and seen a few clips, but Carla, Sadie, and Ed seem like really great characters that should have allowed for more story and prominence.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Faulkner said:

 

 

As an aside, seeing David Lee Russek as Sean on the classic episode of Y&R reminded me he played the dirty white cop who raped Toni (Rhonda Ross Kendrick) on AW in the mid-‘90s. I wonder how that story would be received today, as she had mistakenly accused the innocent Nick Hudson of the rape.

 

Wow I almost forgot how I did like Toni and Etta Mae on AW in its final years along with Chris, Tyrone and the last Dana. I remember liking from what I saw of Zach and Julie Ann from the SoapNet reruns but  found it odd the show had them as brother & sister given what I thought was chemistry LOL. Zach(played by a younger James Pickens!) was brought on for Quinn as her last love interest before she was murdered. I wonder whatever happened to the actress who played Julie Ann.


Early 80’s AW always sounds like an interesting as far as having a diverse set of characters like Quinn, Thomasina, the Todd Brothers, Roy, Henrietta, Abel & Leo etc. I wonder how much front burner airtime they actually did get. Lemay & Rauch had Linda Metcafe last as a supporting for almost a decade and was even given a love interest on screen in a cop who if I remember right died in a fire(?)


 

 

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12 hours ago, soapfan770 said:

Early 80’s AW always sounds like an interesting as far as having a diverse set of characters like Quinn, Thomasina, the Todd Brothers, Roy, Henrietta, Abel & Leo etc.

Good question about how much airtime they got. I suppose that Another World fansite might have their episode counts.
 

A bit of Morgan Freeman as Roy with Petronia Palsy’s Quinn and David Canary’s Steve. Again, it’s an abomination that no soap gave PP the role she deserved, because Vivian Grant, as great as she was in the role, wasn’t it:

 


You’ve probably already seen in this in the AW cancelled soap thread:

 


Jackée as Lily with Thomasina at 12:04:

 

 

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19 hours ago, titan1978 said:

The show always suffered when she was not involved with it.

 

I’ve only read about them and seen a few clips, but Carla, Sadie, and Ed seem like really great characters that should have allowed for more story and prominence.

 

 

Just found this: the 1979 wedding of Carla and Jack Scott on OLTL, with Lillian Hayman singing.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Faulkner said:

Just found this: the 1979 wedding of Carla and Jack Scott on OLTL, with Lillian Hayman singing.

 

 

 

WOW I've never seen this but it's exactly like Ellen Holly said. Carla gets not ONE solo closeup at her OWN WEDDING. Every time they get close to it the camera pulls out to show Viki or makes sure Viki is in the same frame. Pathetic. 

 

There's literally a white woman blocking her shot during the cake cutting scene.

Edited by Darn
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14 minutes ago, Darn said:

 

WOW I've never seen this but it's exactly like Ellen Holly said. Carla gets not ONE solo closeup at her OWN WEDDING. Every time they get close it the camera pulls out to show Viki or makes sure Viki is in the same frame. Pathetic. 

 

There's literally a white woman blocking her shot during the cake cutting scene.

Exactly. She’s a day player at her own wedding. There’s much more Viki than Carla. (And ugh, those iris transitions are cheeesy.)

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3 hours ago, Darn said:

 

WOW I've never seen this but it's exactly like Ellen Holly said. Carla gets not ONE solo closeup at her OWN WEDDING. Every time they get close it the camera pulls out to show Viki or makes sure Viki is in the same frame. Pathetic. 

 

There's literally a white woman blocking her shot during the cake cutting scene.

It is exactly as she described it!!  And quite shameful!

 

Sadie gets more screen focus than Carla does at her own wedding.

 

Also- I’ve never seen a soap wedding staged where a bridesmaid is so prominently featured, even if there is a plot reason why.  They might show them but she is as close to the proceedings as the groom!  Ridiculous!

 

Was this the romantic pairing she hated as well?  I might need to reread that OLTL oral history book.

 

I don’t care if she was difficult btw.  Lots of soap actors have been.  Steve Burton talks about his first day on GH a lot, where he witnessed Tony Geary kicking a trash can across the floor.  We all have read the Geary/Culliton rumors too.  

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On 6/2/2020 at 9:03 PM, juppiter said:

 

Not sure I agree with you on this one. To be sure, the storyline had its issues, but I was recently rewatching some 1999 ATWT and Ben/Denise/Camille are all very frontburner... more frontburner than I'd remembered, even. I recently watched one where Denise had a flashback to her one night stand with Andy and it was pretty sexy! And, I mean, they did give her a child with the son of Kim and John. Give them some credit.

 

On the flip side, maybe the sad thing is I grew so used to the shaft CBS daytime has given black characters for 20 years now that seeing a CBS soap do the bare minimum was shocking/impressive to me.

 

I have to agree on this. Watching some of that timeframe again and it's not nearly as bad. I think we tend to watch things at the time through a certain negative lens and then years later, rewatching, I feel differently about a lot of things I didn't like when I watched originally, lol.

 

They even had a good conversation between Denise and Lily about race. It wasn't major or groundbreaking but I stopped and it caught my attention. 

 

Considering what came later, it's crazy that 1999-2001 ATWT to me is much better than I gave it credit for. For me though it's a lot of little things, not necessarily the storylines.

Edited by KMan101
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4 hours ago, Darn said:

 

WOW I've never seen this but it's exactly like Ellen Holly said. Carla gets not ONE solo closeup at her OWN WEDDING. Every time they get close it the camera pulls out to show Viki or makes sure Viki is in the same frame. Pathetic. 

 

There's literally a white woman blocking her shot during the cake cutting scene.

 

Totally. I watched this the other week when it was posted, and I could practically hear the register printing out all of Ms. Holly's receipts. At least Erika Slezak had the good sense to admit that Viki didn't deserve to be Carla's matron of honor (which Holly took as an ungrateful affront). I can't help but laugh at 4:00 where Viki gets yet another closeup and Erika seems to be thinking, "WTF am I doing here..."

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4 minutes ago, SFK said:

 

Totally. I watched this the other week when it was posted, and I could practically hear the register printing out all of Ms. Holly's receipts. At least Erika Slezak had the good sense to admit that Viki didn't deserve to be Carla's matron of honor (which Holly took as an ungrateful affront). I can't help but laugh at 4:00 where Viki gets yet another closeup and Erika seems to be thinking, "WTF am I doing here..."

 

I do wish Ellen could see it wasn't exactly Erika demanding all of that, though. But then again, Erika could have stepped up and said something because I think it was clear she saw what was going on. Watching that wedding definitely confirms everything Holly has said and it's nice to see. I believed her, of course, but seeing it? Yikes that was SO blatant and horribly done. I love Ellen Holly and will never not be pissed at how she (and many many many other actors of color) was treated. 

 

The sad thing is, it STILL happens in entertainment today. STILL. Just read a story about a Disney theme park castmember and it was an eye opening read but if you're shocked you haven't been paying attention.

Edited by KMan101
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What's funny is how every actor asked, from Erika and Bob Woods on down, has backed up most of Holly's stories. They all say Arthur Burghardt (Jack Scott) was a nightmare. This because, IIRC, Joe Stuart didn't want to hire her choice, which I think was Morgan Freeman.

 

Erika has always taken the honest approach re: this stuff and I appreciate that. She says Ellen Holly was treated horribly.

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19 minutes ago, titan1978 said:

Was this the romantic pairing she hated as well?  I might need to reread that OLTL oral history book.

 

Yes, Arthur Burghardt. She never ever calls him by name, but that's who. She *begged* for him not to be cast.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, KMan101 said:

 

I have to agree on this. Watching some of that timeframe again and it's not nearly as bad. I think we tend to watch things at the time through a certain negative lens and then years later, rewatching, I feel differently about a lot of things I didn't like when I watched originally, lol.

 

They even had a good conversation between Denise and Lily about race. It wasn't major or groundbreaking but I stopped and it caught my attention. 

 

Considering what came later, it's crazy that 1999-2001 ATWT to me is much better than I gave it credit for. For me though it's a lot of little things, not necessarily the storylines.

 

I agree in some cases, but not this one. The story and scenes I mentioned got criticism at the time from the soap press and a number of fans. 1999 wasn't as far away as it now seems, and ATWT had done a better job, admittedly in a dry and smaller way, with Duncan and Jessica's family on the subject of black characters rejecting and confronting a white system. They did manage to write Denise with some sympathy by the time of the Hope reveal and Lily fighting for custody, but by that point a lot of fans weren't willing to accept her or to forgive. I think they could have and should have handled Denise's early material differently, and if they had then the whole story might not have been such a bust.

Edited by DRW50
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6 minutes ago, BetterForgotten said:

Ellen clearly hates Erika Slezak, lol - "The third Vicki." LOL, oh the shade of it all! 

 

She sure does! I definitely get some of it, but still find it unfair; I think ES is collateral damage. Though it did provide one of the great Erika-is-not-[!@#$%^&*]-Viki moments of all time, when someone asked her, I think in her fan newsletter, about it and a quote from the '80s soap mags where she noted that Paul Rauch's OLTL is all white people and haves vs. have nots, a quote Holly took to be praise. Erika breezily replied "yes, that's bullshit." She said she loved Ellen Holly's work and that Ellen was treated horribly, and that her quote about Rauch's all-white show was a criticism of it.

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