There is the EJ issue - where he raped her through gaining her consent by using coercion and implied threat/intimidation of her life and the lives of others. The fact that people argue if this was rape or not is insane to me because it basically Coe,a down to she wasn't screaming and fighting him off. It was rape.

EJ didn't threaten to kill Sami or Lucas during their time in the car. He never threatened to hurt her nor did he say he would kill her if Sami didn't sleep with him. That is why it's a failure of an argument when people say that she was afraid of EJ that night in the car. How could Sami be afraid of EJ when she was the one who stayed in the car with him, refused to go back to the police boarder and ask them for help in saving Lucas and then proceeded to ask him to help her save Lucas from being trapped under the log in the cabin? Ultimately Sami had multiple options that night, she did not need to have sex with EJ to save Lucas. There were multiple alternatives and she choose to have sex with EJ to save Lucas' life. The end. That is not rape. At any point in time Sami could have said no, not unbuttoned her blouse and leave the car and find other people to help her. She made the concious desicion not to do that. Thus no rape occured.

Because Lucas was going to die and the only way he would've lived was having sex with EJ. That's rape by coercion

That's not coercion. Coercion would be EJ strapped Lucas up and had gun men aimed to shoot at Lucas if Sami didn't sleep with him.

But even if she "chooose" to sleep with EJ she did so because at that moment she thought it was the only choice she had hence not a choice at all.

In a culture that scream Rape when two intoxicated adults do the whoopee and regret it later on i find it baffling that based on the premises of a woman sleeping with someone NOT from her own will but because the life of someone she loves is threatened it is not refered as a rape.

Obviously not the case. Sami could have walked out of the car and walked back to the police station EJ and Sami had just passed and asked the police officers for help. That alone shows that Sami had other options. As to two adults being intoxicated and having sex, that is not rape either. Rape would be one of the people being drunk and another one being sober and sleeping with them without their consent.

I watched the show and it didn't look like rape to me. They were two morally corrupt people making a pact, and yes the pressure was on her and he held the cards. The thing with villains is their morality is fluid and Sami was mentally and morally able to barter her sex for a desired outcome. It just so happens the outcome was something she wanted, but if it had been John Black under that fallen roof there is no guarantee Sami would have said yes, negating the whole rape theory since she had the power to make it not happen. If it had been Kate, John, Lexi, or any of the many people Sami hated would Sami have gone along with EJ's proposition?

Agreed, and also an apt point. I would say it's not rape if there is a choice that is offered. If at any point the person can choose not to have sex with an individual it becomes consensual. I would also argue that there is a difference between liking the sex, wanting the sex or actively seducing another person. I don't understand the notion that because Sami didn't want to have sex, that automatically makes it rape. There are tons of housewives, spouses or partners who don't want to have sex with their regular partner at numerous times during their lives but commit to doing it anyway, but that would not automatically make them rape victims.

Ultimately Sami had other options and chose to make the choice she made and then cried about it after because she wanted Lucas to still love her and for her family to see her as a victim. The show itself didn't even call it a rape at the time, for the better part of 8 or 9 months it was never reffered as such, which is why I still think the term "rape" for what happened with EJ and Sami is dubious. Sami did something she didn't want to do because it would benefit her needs. Which is only slightly different from all the other times she has screwed someone else over.

But the tactics are the issue. You have acknowledged that Sami was coerced into unwanted sex. I don't know what state you live in, perhaps it's a more conservative one where the rape laws allow criminals more latitude. But in Illinois, if consent for the sexual act is arrived at through force, intimdation, or coercion, it is considered sexual assault. In the case of Sami, EJ didn't use force, but he did use intimidation and coercion and Sami was an unwilling participant. If you agree she was unwilling and was coerced, the fact is it's considered rape in Illinois. Whether you personally agree with it is not the point, that's the law. And the show has been correct from day one in treating it as such.

Where was Sami coerced? She had a choice and agreed to the terms, EJ was not the only one who could have helped her save Lucas. She could have walked out of the car at any point in time and turned back and asked for the police department to help her save her fiance. She chose to not do that and to have EJ help her, under the terms EJ laid out for her. EJ never threatened her with a gun or Lucas with a gun. He never threatened or even implied a threat that he would shoot her if she didn't sleep with him. It was a deal, a deal Sami agreed to when she didn't have to agree in the first place. Hard to call that rape. She wasn't intimadted. How in the world does an intimated person ask their tormentor for help for their fiance? How does an intimated person stay in the car with their tormentor instead of seeking help from the police department? This is the stuff that invalidates so many of the claims people say in regards to that night and call it rape. Ultimately Sami's "no" changed into a "yes" when she realized that she could get EJ to do something for her, and that is when it ceases to be "rape" and changes from rape to consensual sex.

Why would EJ need to threaten Sami with a gun when he offered to help save Lucas in exchange for sex. You don't need both.

Exactly. It's like people forget that it was Sami's idea in the first place to use EJ to help save Lucas. EJ was willing to save Lucas for a price, and Sami agreed to the terms of payment. Not rape.

He had a gun pointed right at her at the beginning of the "not-rape" sequence. But OK.

He had a gun pointed right at her at the beginning of the "not-rape" sequence. But OK.

he had a gun pointed before they went through the roadblock to get her to drive through it and not expose him to the cops. There was no gun aimed at anyone when she was making her deal after that. He didn't use that to force her into having sex with him

he had a gun pointed before they went through the roadblock to get her to drive through it and not expose him to the cops. There was no gun aimed at anyone when she was making her deal after that. He didn't use that to force her into having sex with him

My thoughts exactly, and further more the gun never came up in discussion of their deal and Sami wasn't thinking about it at all when she was asking EJ to help her move Lucas. If Sami was afraid that EJ was going to kill her or Lucas with the gun it would have made no sense for her to ask EJ to help her. Which is why I can't believe Sami was ever afraid of EJ hurting her or Lucas. Why would she bring someone she was afraid would kill her or Lucas to help them? Why would she bring a predator to her weakened fiance when she knows she wouldn't be able to stop EJ from further harming him or hurting herself with no one around to assist or protect them from this 6'5 man? It doesn't make any sense if that is the argument people are trying to make. Which means one thing, that Sami didn't feel EJ was a threat to Lucas or herself, for even considering using EJ to help Lucas in the cabin.

Overall, the entire thing just makes no sense at all if you are following the situation logically. In order to believe that Sami was coerced by EJ you would first have to believe she felt she was in danger for herself or Lucas, and that doesn't make sense considering what Sami asked EJ to do for her, after their bargain was made. Thus one can't make the statement she was afraid for her life or Lucas' life at the hands of EJ. Which is the primary arguement for rape via coercion. Once one understands that, the idea that EJ coerced her argument unravels and no one can adequately argue that she was raped by him in virtually any capacity as she consented to sex in order for EJ to provide a service for her.

One could argue that EJ took advatnage of a situation, but then again so did Sami when she asked him to help her. They both used each other to acheive their own personal goals.

Edited July 13, 201411 yr by Skin

Wasn't this someone's signature image here?

Wasn't this someone's signature image here?

Doesn't look like it, she's terrified

How about another example, involving Ridge and Brooke on B&B.

It happened during a time when Brooke was being torn between Ridge and Nick. She was very stressed out over the whole situation, and had taken some sleeping pills to help her sleep. Ridge was at her house, and she told him to leave, then went upstairs to bed. He didn't leave though, instead he went up to her bedroom, crawled into her bed and had sex with her, while she was more or less drugged. She did protest a bit, but she was too out of it to really put up any resistance.

At first there were some strong reactions to what Ridge had done, both from Brooke, and from her father, but it was soon glossed over and forgotten.

What made it worse in my opinion was that this was not the first time Ridga had done something like this. He did almost the exact same thing to Caroline. She was sick and had taken medicine when he crawled into bed with her and had sex with her, while she thought he was Thorne, whom she was married to at the time.

Both Caroline and Brooke had romantic feelings for Ridge when these incidents happened, but Caroline wasn't aware that it was him she slept with, and Brooke had told him to leave and told him to stop when he got into her bed, so did he rape them or didn't he?

I considered what Ridge did rape. She was drugged up and lay there almost unresponsive. He mounted her and had his way with a woman that was pretty much unconscious. The sex was very one-way

Edited July 13, 201411 yr by Cheap21

What about what happened with Paul and Christine those years ago

I always found Roger infinitely watchable and fascinating but I never really rooted for him. The show never let us forget that he was the bad guy. Yes, he occasionally turned out to be not as bad as the townsfolk accused him of being but I can't think of a time when the show tried to whitewash his rape of Holly or anything else. At the same time I always saw Holly as the ultimate wackjob for the way she was constantly drawn back to him. Roger and Holly were never presented as anything other than dysfunctional.

Y'all gonna stop coming for my Roger/Holly! Roger and Holly were HAWT!

I'm still pissed that Roger and Holly didn't get the proper send off and P&G/MADD fired MZ after he was diagnosed with ALS.

What about what happened with Paul and Christine those years ago

I consider that rape because didn't Christine try and resist him? I felt that this too has been swept underneath the rug.

What about Malcolm and Dru on Y&R? To me that was the same thing as what Ridge did except Ridge had slept with both Caroline and Brooke prior to that incident.

Malcolm raped Drucilla.

Getting back to SB - yes, all the Carnation Killer's victims were raped and then strangled in late 1984/early 1985. I think the only one who survived without being sexually assaulted was Eden (who wasn't raped until late summer/early fall 1988). I think she managed to survive by playing possum.

Thanks also for bringing up Gina and Summer. I'd forgotten about them but you are absolutely right. That makes three pairs of sisters on SB that had been raped - Eden and Kelly Capwell, Gina and Summer Blake, and Mary and Christie Duvall. Sickening, isn't it?

Edited July 14, 201411 yr by amybrickwallace

And Summer had been raped twice -- by her boyfriend Hank and then Peter Flint.

Frankly, I gave up on Santa Barbara because of all the rapes. Most of the rapes happened within a few years and under the Dobsons' pens.

Getting back to SB - yes, all the Carnation Killer's victims were raped and then strangled in late 1984/early 1985. I think the only one who survived without being sexually assaulted was Eden (who wasn't raped until late summer/early fall 1988). I think she managed to survive by playing possum.

Thanks also for bringing up Gina and Summer. I'd forgotten about them but you are absolutely right. That makes three pairs of sisters on SB that had been raped - Eden and Kelly Capwell, Gina and Summer Blake, and Mary and Christie Duvall. Sickening, isn't it?

I know the show was a critical darling and had a unique style, but all those rapes on SB sound awful.

Was there a female character on the front burner on that show during its run that was not raped?