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Skin

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  1. You always do this, and it goes nowhere productive when you do. No one was talking about the Carey's, Ryan or Babe and your post is an over reaction that is unneeded but predictable. Literally no one was arguing that Erica wasn't a beloved character on the show. Literally no one has said that in the three pages we have in this discussion. No one said that Erica dismantled the show either, so again where is this coming from? Regardless of your thoughts on Sonny Corinthois, whenever he was on screen the show tilted to something that was sort of unrecognizable in an effort to deflect or protect him, and Erica often was in an entirely different universe when her stories were playing out similar to the armor that you would experience for a Stefano, Victor or Todd sort of story. That is all anyone was saying. AMC's writing concerning Erica could have been better handled if they had taken some notes on how OLTL wrote Viki during the same time period in her front burner stories. If you hate Ryan, the Carey's and Babe that's great, I guess (?) not sure what they have to do with Erica's stories being teflon where nothing bad could ever happen to her.
  2. Maybe it was the era in question, but I just remember feeling all through out the 00's that Erica was this untouchable goddess and everyone else were the equivalent of street urchin's compared to her, and everyone knew it. Perhaps it wasn't intentionally supposed to come off that way, but that was the way it felt. Erica had a tremendous amount of plot armor similar to the likes of Victor Newman, Sonny Corinthois and Stefano Dimera, just of a different kind.
  3. I never thought at the Emmy perspective before. Susan being nominated all of those times and losing, while having to embrace another actress who won immediately after being cast.
  4. I think you hit on another aspect of the show and it's relationship with Erica here too. Erica always had to have the last word and ultimately win in all of her arguments, or 'takedown' scenes, which smacked of everyone else who ever opposed her just being 'jealous of her', after awhile that just became grating. You would literally have Erica going up against people like Brooke and Maria who were sort of expected to maintain the high road, and turn the other cheek due to them being virtuous and supposedly morally better but not getting much for it. This made the associated rivalries meek and uninteresting, because Erica was able to act like a child and always ended up getting exactly what she wanted by the end of it any way. Then as the showed progressed they refused to have Erica age up, so you would wind up eventually having scenes with Erica tangling with Greenlee and Kendell and it was embarrassing because they shouldn't have been seen as adversaries or in the same league as one another, all of it was very much below her pay grade, and you just knew in all of these "rivalries" none of them were ever going to win, so what's the point? It was all just useless. A lot of people give Sonny (GH), Jason (GH), Luke (GH), Victor (Y&R), Todd (OLTL) and Dollar Bill (B&B) grief for their plot armor, but I feel you could ultimately say the same thing about Erica at some point too. This sounds like a parody, but it wouldn't surprise me as I think it further exemplifies what I mean by the wish fulfillment of it all.
  5. You are sort of making my point, that awful thing happened to Bianca, not Erica and that was because they couldn't have anything horrible happen to Erica, so they had to make her daughters suffer to move the show forward. Nothing bad could really happen to Erica after a certain point. Erica's Vegas show girl storyline was a disaster but it was done because they couldn't really show her spiraling out in a real way because Erica was for many members in the audience severe wish fulfillment.
  6. I think I've said this before, and I am aware that this is an unpopular opinion and that Erica can do no wrong in some viewers eyes but I remember watching her and a sort of transition happening from the late 90's to the early 00's, where it felt like Erica became sort of untouchable and wish fulfillment for the audiences, and a sort of plastic-y sense of writing appeared around her that insolated and bubbled her from anything truly bad happening to her. As such it felt trying to watch scenes with her in it, because well you knew she was always going to win, and everyone else was just poor, ugly and too stupid to deal with the great Erica Kane. She became unrealistic and stories suffered for having her in them because no one could really go against her meaningfully, and have that have consequences and meaning. I get the sense that's why the show started transitioning focus to others like Kendell, Bianca and Greenlee because they had real stakes associated with them. The last real storyline it felt like Erica had was the Betty Ford clinic one, and maybe the original Babyswitch in 1997, with Maria and Dimitri. But even in those storylines it felt like they needed to end them prematurely because they didn't want to risk Erica 'looking bad' by the audience, so that's when they ended up with Bianca's anorexia storyline, which was largely structured to get Erica out of prison on sympathetic release. This would go on for years with her love triangles, her marriages, and her affairs being written but they were sort of useless because nothing ever happened. They just sort of parked her with Jackson, and even if the broke up, it was clear they were going to get back together with each other eventually. She just regressed as a character, and didn't have much meaning. No disrespect to those that love her though, I am sure at the height of her powers in the 70's and 80's she was a powerhouse figure. But to me the 2000's greatly damaged her legacy, and I tend to think of the two Agnes Nixon shows from 2000 - 2011 OLTL did a better job by Viki than AMC did by Erica.
  7. I agree with you, that this is more on the writing side (I would say maybe 75%), however I also think the writers wrote towards the strengths of the actors they had. I personally think the soap would have had a greater appetite for making Kendell more dynamic if they had a stronger actress. Minshew always skewed towards being a romantic leading actress more than a dramatic one. She eventually grew towards a more mature dramatic presence, but it took the better part of a decade for her to get there. This is ultimately why the show ended up being split between Budig and Minshew in it's last years. Budig brought the dramatic tension and bitchy soap presence in spades, while Minshew brought the more tender romanticism of a quintessential soap heroine. They both had in excess what the other needed badly. If Kendell had a Sarah Jo Brown or SMG caliber actress I think AMC would have played with having a Carly on their own show for better or worse.
  8. Eden was the only Bianca to me. I always felt SMG played the better Kendell. I felt that Minshew played Kendell for 2-3 years tops and then they transformed her into something else because the writers got tired writing that character and she became a basic soap heroine.
  9. She found out at the end of May. Krystal found out the month prior in mid April and stopped Tad from finding out the truth, he would later find out at the end of the summer/early fall and do nothing. The problem to your point was aggravated by the fact that Babe was hospitalized most of March and had amnesia and wasn't able to bond with 'Bess' initially because she thought she had a son. I agree that Babe found out too early, but I also think that was in part due to the fact that I don't think the switch was supposed to be as long as it was. Pretty much during the same time period Babe, David, Brooke and Tad all had moments in the story where they were about to reveal the truth and then they didn't and the story just died until sweeps period. That's my personal speculation though, nothing concrete but when I put it all together that's what I get. There were a ton of avenues to stop the switch introduced in the summer and early fall that eventually were false exits, but much of the baby switch story after September doesn't make much sense and is mostly just padding the show until we get to November, which was when things started happening again with the engine of the story being kick started for the end. For pretty much two months though, nothing of note happened which makes me think the writing room didn't know what to do with the story and executive meddling made them keep a holding pattern until the holidays for better ratings during sweeps and the Christmas holiday. This is the first time I've heard a fan say that the baby switch didn't last long enough. It went on from March to December of 2004. It lasted almost a year. Most baby switches with Days, ATWT and even AMC's own baby switch back in 1997 lasted 3-6 months at best. Not 9 months. Although I disagree with you on the timing, I do agree that in 2004 nothing else of interest was worth watching outside of the baby switch. My thoughts here are once Alexa proved that she could handle the material and worked as front burner to keep the trains on time they wanted to use her as a back up lead if Minshew, Budig or Reigel ever left. This would later prove effective planning when both Reigel and Budig left in 2005, and Babe essentially became apart of the Fusion squad. The show seemed to recognize that it needed 3 actresses front burner to steer the ship, and they seemed to balance the show on 6 front burner leads for actors and actresses. Ryan, Zach and JR were the lead actors during that same period which complimented the three lead actresses on the show more or less. Chrishell's Amanda was never lead material. She was at best a romantic supporting actress who could support a second-tier leading man, which is eventually what she became with Jake/Ricky Paul Golden. They tried to pair her with Jonathan and Jaime and both pairings failed to catch the audiences eye. They just never got Jaime's character right, after Babe they tried to transition him to Amanda, but I think they realized Chrishell/Amanda wasn't hacking it and making an impact the way they wanted to. Then they paired him with Julia, which was another misfire. I don't blame Justin for wanting to leave the show. In his last months, they basically just had him shirtless in whatever location they could put him in.
  10. Or they could just not have gotten along? A lot of people seem to have this knee jerk reaction where they have to protect Lucci at all cost, and it's kind of odd. I'm sure many people don't love all of their co-workers in real life too. Sarah may have been 'difficult' as well but she also seemed to have fairly positive and life long relationships built on the AMC set too, that have stayed intact through the years. Lucci just isn't one of them. During her time she had a specific cohort group of people who she seemed to bond and gel with better. I don't see why there is a need to demonize Sarah who was a fair bit younger at the time, in order to make sure the Susan shrine shines. Just because Sarah didn't like the face of the show, doesn't mean she didn't have friends there. If anything the grace would fall towards Susan as she is the elder, and it would fall upon her to act with maturity and grace with a younger performer. So if this is a 'loss' for Sarah, it would as such be a 'loss' for Lucci too. Also status and position play big factors in any set. The fact that Sarah went on to bigger and better things and didn't need the soap [while others did] may have actually been one of the reasons why she felt comfortable being vocal enough to share her experiences. Others could have been scared to vocalize not having a shining experience with Lucci. This is ridiculous, Gellar always played the better Kendell, and could act circles around Minshew with her eyes closed, and both her hands and legs tied behind her back.
  11. I guess for all intensive purposes, I more or less liked the way the Babyswitch storyline worked, at least from the beginning. It's not a badly written story from the onset. The problem to me mostly stems from the fact that the storyline went on way too long, and the writers lost focus because they wanted to tell 12 different stories inside of the Babyswitch one. They basically held the baby switch storyline hostage to keep viewers, and flooded the show with their other pet projects because the rest of the show wasn't great. I also think a lot of it was networking interference and a desperate attempt to keep ratings high. They saw a way to hook audiences in for a year and just kept going, even if it damaged the characters and the show. You could tell that the storyline went on too long, because the story had natural exit points to end, but the executives kept extending it. David becoming Babe's father, Tad (a Private Investigator) finding out about the secret but not telling, Babe finally choosing to tell the truth in September, but getting lost and going on a drive to Llanview, and Brooke keeping the secret for Jaime are all examples of the story being stretched out longer than it needed to be, and forcibly being derailed for little value other than to fatten the ratings. The story was naturally set to wrap by the end of summer, but the ratings were good so they extended the story to the end of the year. I also get the sense that somewhere along the line they realized Alexa's strength as an actress, and you could basically hear the production team barreling down the hallways telling the writers to change course, because Alexa was continuously turning the dreck they gave her into utter gold. However, by that point it was too late. You could see Megan initially scoped the Carey's as expendable, and then somewhere around the summer of 2004 they had to be salvaged. They wanted to have their cake and eat it to, which further frustrated audiences. The way the quoted story progresses, Amanda is pretty much unlikable from the onset, which I don't think would be viable for trying to launch a heroine, and she is further isolated from other cast members as the main antagonist of the story. When you reflect upon the babyswitch story the foundation was pretty quick -- the preparation for the baby switch only lasted 4 months. I doubt the writers would want to fail launching a legacy character by putting her against a fan favorite one as mega popular as Bianca, especially without context. It would be better for Janet to be the bad guy, and then have Amanda struggle with it all similar to what they did with Krystal and Babe. I would say all of this is a practice in understanding the character motivations of your material, but I also think the show was a bit confused about how they wanted these characters to be perceived. I definitely think Babe was supposed to be written out in the summer or fall of 2004, initially. There were multiple ways that could have happened. Somewhere along the way they wanted her to be less of a schemer and more of a heroine, they just botched it horribly. In hindsight we can say Jaime was a dud, but I don't think that was the case in 2003. Jaime and JR were huge deals for the future of the Martin's and Chandlers, and as such they needed to be transitioned from teenage kids, to fully realized adults. If nothing else the Babe/Babyswitch storylines did that. It's a shame that the writers couldn't figure out what to do with him, after those storylines but I think they ultimately succeeded with Babe, where they failed with both Joni and Laurie for JR and Jaime earlier.
  12. I agree with this as well, I was trying to play the story in my mind and I got to the point where Kate Collin's could have performed it, but I think it would have strained the audiences credulity to have Janet break in this way, and not have anyone notice for the better part of 8-9 months. The reason Janet worked in 2005, was because she was basically on there for a few months to spice up the sweep period, and even then she was sort of used sparingly like a sort of thriller villain. Having her on the canvas for an extended amount of time, the way Krystal was, basically necessitates a psychotic break for a prolonged period. It's basically the Nikki Smith/Viki story from the early 2000's on One Life To Live, but a bit worse. Not going to lie this makes me sort of rethink the value of the Carey's honestly. I know a lot of people hated them, but I think they accomplished a lot of (for the lack of a better term) functional writing needs that wouldn't have been possible without them. For all the grief they get, I definitely do think they were able to rebalance the show towards the Martins and Chandlers after we essentially got the Kane show all through 2003. As good as 2003 was, that's not a sustainable or balanced show. The Martin/Chandler group needed essentially a Liza/Mia combo to bring them back to focus in some way. Also Babe assisted in successfully transitioning JR and Jaime into adulthood, which is something that was sort of a gamble at the time as both teen love interests Joni and Laurie weren't able to do that for either character. This solidified a next generation of Chandler's and Martin's and made the potential for future leading men viable. No mean feat when both MEK and DC were aging. Chucking Amanda in there and having that not work, would have had the impact of potentially creating 3 lame duck legacy characters in a row. It made sense for the writers to save her for later.
  13. Stause wouldn't have been able to produce. That was always the thing that held Amanda back as a character.
  14. I wonder why they are waiting for 14 days? I didn't read the article is there an explanation for that?
  15. Apparently is was Josh Duhamel, who shared this on Watch What Happens Live.
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