Members SFK Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 Thank you for some legal terminology. I said this the last time we discussed this, but I wish someone would submit these scenes to a couple of lawyers and get their take on it once and for all. That could be an interesting little YouTube project. I'm too embarrassed to trouble any of my lawyer friends with this, even the soap fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Max Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 Rewriting a rape and making it into something less serious (than what it was) is an insult to all rape victims. But it is also an insult to the soap viewers. In this latter respect, rewriting a rape has the similarly disgraceful effect on the genre that the endless coming back from the dead storylines have had. I have no idea if this is the ultimate point that she is trying to make, but this constant rewriting of historical events is a major reason why soaps aren't taken seriously. If writers constantly pretend that characters' deaths never happened, it should not surprise anybody that these same writers may want to pretend that traumatic raping incidents never happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vee Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 America, please! I watched that show live that day - E.J. had a gun on her and he raped her on the passenger side of a car! I don't know if he even reclined the seat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smirks Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 +1 "But officer, I reclined the seat and everything...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amybrickwallace Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 I think CH said that about Jax on GH. He was tied up and forced to sleep with some woman but I don't remember which one. I know it wasn't Carly. Much as I am a Santa Barbara fan, I was and still am a bit concerned by the number of women raped on that show (Eden, Kelly, Christie, Mary, Hayley, Julia...am I forgetting anyone?). Still, at least they never retconned or sugarcoated any of it. Kelly was forced to sleep with her psychotic ex Peter when he kidnapped her during her honeymoon with Joe. Christie was brutally attacked and assaulted time and again by her easily enraged stepbrother Steve. (Tricia Cast was still a minor during that plotline and Ashby Adams was terrifying as Steve - he would slam her down on a table or wherever, pull her hair, etc. Her eyes would fill up with fear whenever he was around and it took everyone forever and a day to catch on.) But the most brutal and chilling rape I have ever seen depicted on screen (and I believe NBC had to run disclaimers during the episode) was Eden's. Everyone, especially Marcy Walker, turned in excellent work and she more than earned that Emmy in 1989. (Though knowing she was pregnant IRL during those scenes was more than a little disturbing...at least they had a double handle the most demanding physical stunts.) SB just dropped the ball when they revealed who Eden's rapist was. Watching it now makes me want to take a shower. What was the consensus at the time among SB fans when his identity was uncovered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members titan1978 Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 So if you think Sami was raped by EJ (and I do) then she was raped 3 times? I forgot all about fake Rafe. That is just terrible. Terrible work by TPTB at Days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amybrickwallace Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 Not to mention LAZY and SLOPPY work!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members quartermainefan Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 I watched the show and it didn't look like rape to me. They were two morally corrupt people making a pact, and yes the pressure was on her and he held the cards. The thing with villains is their morality is fluid and Sami was mentally and morally able to barter her sex for a desired outcome. It just so happens the outcome was something she wanted, but if it had been John Black under that fallen roof there is no guarantee Sami would have said yes, negating the whole rape theory since she had the power to make it not happen. If it had been Kate, John, Lexi, or any of the many people Sami hated would Sami have gone along with EJ's proposition? As for GH and Jax, I contend that was not rape either. Irina told Jax he had to sleep with Irina or Irina would kill Carly. That was his chance to be rid of Carly once and for all and save the GH audience years of boredom. The fact that she laughed at Jax and his predicament showed he chose wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cheap21 Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 I definitely agree on the Sami issue. She used sex to get what she wanted. I will disagree however on Jax. Irina had him beat up, had him tied up with gun pointed at him. She didn't just threaten Carly, but the kids as well. I honestly don't think he had a choice. His attacker was threatening his life and those close to him if he didn't comply. Its hard to imagine anyone can look at this and say there was no rape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members marceline Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 I'm always torn when I see discussions like this. (Not torn on Hinsey's column. She's a disgusting apologist for everything that's wrong with the genre.) On one hand, part of me thinks it's good for drama to give us stories where we really have to think about thorny issues like consent. On the other, I realize that soaps don't really bother to delve into those questions and basically just traffic in stories of sexual exploitation because it's cheap and easy. Then they try to undo it by retconning that exploitation into a game or a romance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JaneAusten Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 This has always been a murky issue, particularly with those who either dislike both characters or think EJ and Sami belong together. To those 2 groups I can see why believing it's rape might be something difficult to accept. Those who don't really like either character I think believe these 2 deserve whatever is coming to them. Sami is a person of questionable morals so how could anyone believe it was rape. Those who think they are some kind of destiny just can't see how someone who loves Sami so much could do something so horrible and Sami loves him so deep down she wanted to have sex with him. But putting those 2 things aside, I still struggle to understand how it's questionable. Sami was with Lucas at the time. They were stranded in a cabin during a snowstorm, slept together, and then the roof collapsed trapping Lucas. He was dying of hypothermia. Sami went in search of help. EJ found her(lets not even talk about why he was fleeing). He also had a gun(remember why he was fleeing). He told her the only way he would help her save Lucas would be if she slept with him. She clearly told him NO she didn't want to. That doesn't sound like someone willing. And she used the word NO. Aren't we told legally that NO means NO, there is no wiggle room, there was no deal. He used the situation to gain something she clearly did not want to happen and didn't care that she didn't want to. No he didn't use physical force, he manipulated her, but she made it clear she didn't want to by using the word NO. He also had a gun which IMO was an implied threat. Again he didn't point it to her and say I am going to kill you if you don't, but he had it and was waving it around over the course of the whole incident. None of this is bargaining or negotiating. EJ wanted sex and wasn't willing to accept anything else in order to not allow the person she loved die, someone he knew he could use against her to gain leverage and control. The John Black example isn't a viable comparison. I can't say what Sami would have done had it been someone she didn't really care about. Would EJ have even used John Black to gain control or leverage knowing it was someone she probably didn't give a damn about? But does it really matter? The show itself acknowledged it WAS rape. There were scenes between the two of them where EJ acknowledged this and apologized to her. But this wasn't even the worst of it. EJ tormented and stalked Sami for months after this incident, playing on her fears and vulnerability. And on a note I agree with you Marceline. But the issue of consent has never been explored in this particular story because the incident in terms of the show was never viewed as anything other than rape. They dealt with it, well sort of. But then of course they went down that murky road again when EJ hired a criminal who was surgically altered to look like Sami's husband Rafe, encouraged the man to take advantage of her and sleep with her, all again as a means of controlling and tormenting her and to get his kids away from her once and for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Steve Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 The title of this thread disgusts me as a human being! I've never been a fan of Carolyn Hinsey's and it appalls me to think that anyone would justify the soaps' poor history of dealing with rape by saying it's just a TV show. On GH, Luke raped Laura the day before my 12th birthday and as a young kid, I never understood the appeal of that couple when Laura had a loving husband at home (though admittedly I was a Scott/Laura fan too). I've made it clear in the past throughout this site how I felt about OLTL keeping Todd Manning around and trying to reform him. I didn't see the Sami/EJ scenes but from what I'm reading in this thread, there is no doubt in my mind that it was rape; she felt coerced to have sex with him to save Lucas and it doesn't matter if she could've called 911 (assuming there was cell service wherever they were), EJ took advantage of her. In this day and age where we have politicians saying there's such a thing as "legitimate rape", it saddens me to think these shows aimed at women are perpetuating the myth that it might not really be rape in any situation where a woman has sex against her will. I'll step down from my soapbox now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JaneAusten Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 ^^ I think you have to consider the times also. Some of the "rapemance" stories of years past came about in a culture that was just coming to terms with rape. There were still books written that glorified the so called "dominance" of the male just helping the woman realize her passion, versus forcing himself on her and it was written to be romantic. That type of writing has changed over the years, as the definition of rape has evolved. I won't claim to understand the Luke and Laura phenomenon, but as society came to terms with rape, we also saw the show revisit that years later and whether the story was likable or not, come to terms with the fact that it was rape. What is disturbing IMO is in a genre that in some cases was the first one to tackle such taboo subjects as Vietnam, abortion, incest, I fail to understand why it's still so backwards when it comes to rape. I think it's because the people involved still don't understand or want to accept that rape is not a crime of sex, it's a crime of violence, control, and manipulation. Maybe that mirrors how society still struggles at times as to what rape is. The story of the high school girl who was drunk and raped by football team members in Ohio was only exposed as rape when video footage taken by I believe one of the players was located on the internet. And still, people attacked the victim on social media. Heck even ABC's interviews of the boys parents was slanted in the boys favor. Fortunately for the girl, the courts ruled differently. I actually just went back to rewatch the scenes with Sami and EJ and I had almost forgotten he was using her to get past a police block because he was fleeing the law and had a gun on her then. The terror in those scenes experienced by Sami, heck you can see it on Sweeney's face, doesn't leave it questionable to me. I can accept that the shows might see a spark between two characters, but in the case of Sami and EJ that spark was observed long before they wrote that rape story with EJ so they had no issue writing it knowing they were likely going to pair up these two characters in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DRW50 Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 Is this just click bait? What was the point of this? Isn't she an actress now? I guess she's about as good an actress as she is a writer. The cutesy "it's what the writers say it is" doesn't really address the fact that the writers often give horribly mixed signals. Not just in 1979 and 1980, but in 2010 and 2011, when Ron Carlivati veered between claiming Jessica was raped, that it couldn't be rape because Teen Jess wanted it, and finally, claiming that the adult Jessica secretly wanted it all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cheap21 Posted July 12, 2014 Members Share Posted July 12, 2014 Moving on from Sami, what about Victor and Marty on OLTL? In the original story, I did believe it was raped but the later retcons shed a whole new light on it, that I don't think it was in hindsight. Originally, he was Todd Manning and as Todd, he slept with her, hiding his identity and their history knowing she was amnesiac. She would not have slept with him had she known the truth about who he was to her as it disgusted her to realize she had sex with one of her rapists from college. FF a few years and we learn that he in fact was never Todd, but a pawn that was brainwashed and manipulated himself. As it stands, Victor and Marty were two people who met for the first time, got closer over the course of several months, fell in love and had sex. The legacy of rape and what was done to her years prior was no longer part of his history and one cant say she wouldn't have had sex with him had she known him for who he really was, as he didn't even know the truth himself at the time. Its kind of a weird, odd situation you never see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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