Does anyone have any thoughts why DOOL and AW expanded but outside of a test episode, the Doctors wasn't?  Was the test episode poorly received?  You would think a solid three-hour/three show block would do better than having a bloated AW.  2:30. then later 2pm was a death blow for AW, as it would linger for twenty more years but never again really be competitive.

On 9/19/2021 at 1:30 AM, will81 said:

From Daytime TV two weeks ending May 13, 1973

1. As The World Turns 10.4 38%

2. Another World 9.9 35%

3. Days Of Our Lives 9.7 35%

4. General Hospital 9.6 34%

5. The Doctors 8.8 34%

6. The Guiding Light 8.5 31%

7. The Edge of Night 8.2 32%

8. Search For Tomorrow 8.1 33%

9. All My Children 7.9 30%

10. One Life to Live 7.5 27%

 

 

From Daytime TV two weeks ending Mar 03, 1974

1. As The World Turns 10.7 30%

2. Days Of Our Lives 10.5 34%

3. The Doctors 10.2 34%

4. General Hospital 10.2 31%

5. Another World 9.6 30%

6. All My Children 9.5 31%

7. One Life To Live 8.9 26%

8. The Guiding Light 8.1 27%

9. Search For Tomorrow 7.6 27%

10. The Edge of Night 7.2 24%

The Top 5 Game Shows

1. Match Game 74 11.1 34%

2. Hollywood Squares 9.8 40%

3. The Newlywed Game 8.9 29%

4. Jackpot 8.7 32%

5. The New Price Is Right 8.7 27%

 

 

From Daytime TV Two weeks ending Apr 28, 1974

1. As The World Turns 9.7 36%

2. Days Of Our Lives 9.3 33%

3. The Guiding Light 8.9 32%

4. The Doctors 8.8 33%

5. Another World 8.7 30%

6. General Hospital 8.6 29%

7. All My Children 8.1 31%

8. One Life To Live 7.9 27%

9. Search For Tomorrow 7.4 31%

10. The Edge of Night 7.1 38%

Top 5 Gameshows

1. Match Game 74 10.1 35%

2. The Price Is Right 8.2 29%

3. Hollywood Squares 7.7 36%

4. Jackpot 7.3 32%

5. Let's Make a Deal 7.0 26%

 

59 minutes ago, Spoon said:

Does anyone have any thoughts why DOOL and AW expanded but outside of a test episode, the Doctors wasn't?  Was the test episode poorly received?  You would think a solid three-hour/three show block would do better than having a bloated AW.  2:30. then later 2pm was a death blow for AW, as it would linger for twenty more years but never again really be competitive.

 

I've wondered more than once. The idea for the expansion came from NBC & from Fred Silverman,  & another programmer there, a woman, named Len somebody, worked first with AW & did a standalone episode for one hour, a wedding, and made plans to go full-time for an hour with the understanding that if it worked they would continue on to DOOL. It worked. They did. Except DOOL's standalone was something else, not a wedding. Then, they did a standalone hour long for THE DOCTORS. Then, the information stops. Fred Silverman was again behind the idea to take AW to 90 minutes. There was a big fight over that. Silverman & Rauch won & Lemay lost & subsequently quit as HW. And, it was an epic failure & the affiliates hated it & blamed AW. So why did they stop & pull up short on their own process of implementation when it came to DOC?!

7 hours ago, Spoon said:

Does anyone have any thoughts why DOOL and AW expanded but outside of a test episode, the Doctors wasn't?  Was the test episode poorly received?  You would think a solid three-hour/three show block would do better than having a bloated AW.  2:30. then later 2pm was a death blow for AW, as it would linger for twenty more years but never again really be competitive.

 

A New York Times article back in 1974 said NBC was planning one-hour trial episodes of The Doctors and Days of our Lives.

I could be wrong, but I thought that The Doctors did two one-hour trial episodes. I think one was around March 1976 when Nick came back to save Althea's life after an injury. And the other was from spring of 1977 when Carolee finally made her way back to Madison.

Even after the 90-minute Another World failed, NBC was still toying with expanding Days of our Lives to 90 minutes. Many, many years ago, I had a book that specifically looked at television in 1979 and the AW expansion and the proposed DOOL expansion were discussed in the chapter on soaps. NBC was making a bunch of questionable decisions in 1979 in addition to the AW expansion, including the disastrous Supertrain.

1 hour ago, robbwolff said:

A New York Times article back in 1974 said NBC was planning one-hour trial episodes of The Doctors and Days of our Lives.

I could be wrong, but I thought that The Doctors did two one-hour trial episodes. I think one was around March 1976 when Nick came back to save Althea's life after an injury. And the other was from spring of 1977 when Carolee finally made her way back to Madison.

Even after the 90-minute Another World failed, NBC was still toying with expanding Days of our Lives to 90 minutes. Many, many years ago, I had a book that specifically looked at television in 1979 and the AW expansion and the proposed DOOL expansion were discussed in the chapter on soaps. NBC was making a bunch of questionable decisions in 1979 in addition to the AW expansion, including the disastrous Supertrain.

None of the information I've been able to find refers to a second standalone episode for the DOC or for any discussion of 90 minutes for DOOL. Elana Levine's book is very comprehensive about the expansion but has nothing in it about the 90 minute experiment. I will say that NBC was very intent on their plans, as they developed them & that they seemed foolhardy in the chances they were willing to take. My favorite quote is that (paraphrasing now) the NBC programmers went to a 90 minute show with AW because they couldn't think of anything better to do differently. I'm always interested in additional info on this subject. Listening to the audio interview of Pete is well worth the hour it takes. WOST Interviewer who caught him at an awards show in 2006. He is who named Fred Silverman. That can be found on YouTube.

9 minutes ago, Tonksadora said:

None of the information I've been able to find refers to a second standalone episode for the DOC or for any discussion of 90 minutes for DOOL. Elana Levine's book is very comprehensive about the expansion but has nothing in it about the 90 minute experiment. I will say that NBC was very intent on their plans, as they developed them & that they seemed foolhardy in the chances they were willing to take. My favorite quote is that (paraphrasing now) the NBC programmers went to a 90 minute show with AW because they couldn't think of anything better to do differently. I'm always interested in additional info on this subject. Listening to the audio interview of Pete is well worth the hour it takes. WOST Interviewer who caught him at an awards show in 2006. He is who named Fred Silverman. That can be found on YouTube.

According to Danny Hill, who posts a lot of classic soap episodes, The Doctors did two one-hour tests -- one in 1975 and the other in 1977. He said it also aired a 90-minute test in 1976. That's when Althea fell through a window and Nick Bellini returned to save her life.

This is the book that discussed the expansion of Another World and stated that NBC was still considering expanding Days. The soaps section of the book included photos. I distinctly recall a photo or two of the Ryan's from Ryan's Hope.

 

 

 

Lin Bolen was the daytime VP who initiated the expansion of AW and then DOOL.

Remember the ratings fight in the 70's was fierce as each network bid for supremacy.

CBS had been knocked from their longstanding #1 position and it was determined to regain it, and NBC and ABC both close competitors.

When the expanded AW improved the 3.30 -4.00 ratings at nowhere near the cost of a separate soap, DOOL quickly followed suit.

I think the issue with The Doctors might have been Colgate-Palmolive, owners of the show. There might have been reluctance on their part to pony up the extra dollars needed. Also, from a practical point of view, The Doctors did not have the studio space necessary for the extra sets required for a 60 min show.

SOD mentioned DOOL going to 90 min but I'm not sure how far that got. As soon as the AW ratings came in there would have been 2nd thuughts.

1 hour ago, Paul Raven said:

As soon as the AW ratings came in there would have been 2nd thuughts.

Yes, and thank goodness they finally paused to think!! Oh, boy, was that ever needed! Len Bolen, yes, was the woman they used to implement activities with the shows. Thnks. Have not had even a minute to look up her last name. She was clear that it would cost more than double to do (an hour) but that they would "somehow" make up that amount because they would have so much more in ad revenues. After they had been doing an hour not very long at all, Pete Lemay began to find flaws in many areas of production & in results. I have numerous quotes from him, at any point that someone is interested. He was initially very enthused & wanted to write 7-8 minute scenes but his feelings about it went "that-away" as they ended up just doing more 2-3 minute scenes, etc.

2 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

hink the issue with The Doctors might have been Colgate-Palmolive, owners of the show. There might have been reluctance on their part to pony up the extra dollars needed. Also, from a practical point of view, The Doctors did not have the studio space necessary for the extra sets required for a 60 min show.

Colgate-Palmolive was the only thing I could think of, where they didn't seem to fit. And, that studio space was an issue for them is of note because Agnes Nixon said she would never expand & while she was at it she told Lemay she thought he'd gone crazy, literally lost his mind, that's how against expansion she was. What ABC did was apply a carrot, a big carrot, more studio space, a significant increase in it & she came right over to the expansion side!

9 hours ago, robbwolff said:

According to Danny Hill, who posts a lot of classic soap episodes, The Doctors did two one-hour tests -- one in 1975 and the other in 1977. He said it also aired a 90-minute test in 1976. That's when Althea fell through a window and Nick Bellini returned to save her life.

This is the book that discussed the expansion of Another World and stated that NBC was still considering expanding Days. The soaps section of the book included photos. I distinctly recall a photo or two of the Ryan's from Ryan's Hope.

 

 

 

Thank you for the exchange of information. I have copied this into my files. At some point maybe one of us is going to make a new breakthrough on this information. At any rate there's nothing to stop us from trying. Indefatigable!

I've just done an examination of the ratings for 20 years of ratings, beginning with 1969-1970 and ending with 1988-1989. I paid attention to all ABC soaps, all Debuts, all Final Seasons, all bottom rated and Y&R and AW. GH was never the bottom rated soap. GH was also never the lowest rated ABC soap. GH was 10th of 19; 6th of 17; 2nd of 17; 4th of 17; 5th of 16; 8th of 14; 10th of 14; 10th of 15; 9th of 14; 2nd of 14; 1st of 13; 1st of 13; 1st of 15; 1st of 14; 1st of 14; 1st of 14; 1st of 13; 1st of 14; 1st of 12; 2nd of 13. And, that last, when GH slipped to 2nd was Y&R's first #1, 1988-1989. The 1970s rankings were 1 ATWT 2 AW and 3 DOOL. The 1980s rankings were 1 GH 2 AMC 3 Y&R and 4 OLTL. One thing that is clear in looking at these 20 years of ratings is that ABC was THE POWERHOUSE of ratings, hands down, CBS & NBC eat your hearts out! Trying to look to imagine what was making ABC think that maybe GH should be either fixed or killed, we have to look at these years: GH was 10th of 19; 6th of 17; 2nd of 17; 4th of 17; 5th of 16; 8th of 14; 10th of 14; 10th of 15; 9th of 14; 2nd of 14; three 10th place, one 9th place and one 8th place. That's gotta be where it came from. I looked up Tom Donovan & he was either a director or a producer (both were said) at GH from 1985-2006. I'll have to find out which he was. Reading 3 of your posts here gave me the ideas I needed to pursue to learn this more about GH during that time. Thnks for the inspiration. I'll take my leave of you now.

You should watch the interviews with Fred Silverman when he was at ABC on the EMMYs website and also on Youtube.  Fred was a fan of Agnes Nixon's All My Children and of Agnes. When Fred came to ABC, GH was a mess and Fred was the one who said either you improve this or it is gone. When things got better at GH and OLTL he expanded them to 45 then to an 1 hour. It was All My Children that was the leader when Fred took over and remained ABC's top soap until 1980.

1 hour ago, JoeCool said:

You should watch the interviews with Fred Silverman when he was at ABC on the EMMYs website and also on Youtube.  Fred was a fan of Agnes Nixon's All My Children and of Agnes. When Fred came to ABC, GH was a mess and Fred was the one who said either you improve this or it is gone. When things got better at GH and OLTL he expanded them to 45 then to an 1 hour. It was All My Children that was the leader when Fred took over and remained ABC's top soap until 1980.

Some people say that he & Irna Phillips were the only people to deal with all 3 broadcast networks. I am suspect of that so I figure what it really means is that they were the first, which I do believe to be accurate. And, he accumulated so much power! Of course, he was big into the network where he was for each tenure during what was called 'the network era'. He conceived of the two 45 min. shows making up a 90 min. block. He did one thing that I do not understand.  Here's what he did with OLTL & GH:

OLTL 30 to 45 July 26, 1976      45 to 1 hr Jan. 16, 1978.

GH 30 to 45 July 26, 1976      45 to 1 hr Dec. 1, 1975

Why did he leave OLTL at 45 for 2 extra years?

19 minutes ago, Tonksadora said:

Some people say that he & Irna Phillips were the only people to deal with all 3 broadcast networks. I am suspect of that so I figure what it really means is that they were the first, which I do believe to be accurate. And, he accumulated so much power! Of course, he was big into the network where he was for each tenure during what was called 'the network era'. He conceived of the two 45 min. shows making up a 90 min. block. He did one thing that I do not understand.  Here's what he did with OLTL & GH:

OLTL 30 to 45 July 26, 1976      45 to 1 hr Jan. 16, 1978.

GH 30 to 45 July 26, 1976      45 to 1 hr Dec. 1, 1975

Why did he leave OLTL at 45 for 2 extra years?

Silverman was trying to create a 3hour serial/daytime drama block gradually.  He left OLTL for expansion last since the show had fierce competition with ATWT and AW. Once OLTL expanded, ATWT was being strongly challenged by AMC and AW and eventually fell from the top. OLTL also was the lowest ranked among AMC and GH and OLTL so Fred Silverman did it gradually. At the end, a strong 3 hour block was created and last it almost 35 years on ABC.

I thought that One Life to Live and the serial General Hospital expanded to 45-minutes and later to 60-minutes on the same days.   The game shows that had been airing on ABC (such as Family Feud) eventually disappeared or moved to the mornings.  The Edge of Night was airing during the final timeslot that ABC aired.    Ryan's Hope was moved initially to a timeslot which was thirty minutes earlier initially.   (And Ryan's Hope later switched timeslots with Loving - and many people had said that this led to the cancellation of Ryan's Hope).

1 hour ago, danfling said:

thought that One Life to Live and the serial General Hospital expanded to 45-minutes and later to 60-minutes on the same days. 

That is funny to me because I thought that, too! Then, when confronted with the two different dates I was just gob-smacked. LOL I couldn't figure that out at all! Thnkx Joe for the explanation. Here I was thinking that they were mistreating OLTL when actually they were giving it its best shot because it was up against both CBS's toughest competition and NBC's toughest competition! (at that time) 2 p.m. was just the time to beat! And, oh, yeah, I will definitely look for those interviews! Thnx again.

Edited October 8, 20223 yr by Tonksadora
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