B&B: Old/Classic Discussion & Articles

[sheilaforever]

I recall that B&B was SUPER bad around 2008 and rebounded masterfully in 2010 (POSÉ!). In my mind then came Sarah Joy Brown as Sandy Sommers and it went into a giant ditch. I think I actually quit watching in 2011 or 2012, not because of RM and SF's exits but because it all felt very lifeless to me and Liam&Hope were on 24/7. I did not come back fulltime until early 2014, Thorsten Kaye was suddenly around and was some much needed fresh air. To me, the show has never gotten this bad like in the early 2010s. Even though it came close in 2018 and beyond (like frist half of 2021). 

 

I cannot remember much of Amber's return - except that scene with Bill at the cliff house where he imagined her pushing her off that very cliff. Talk about a dream come true for many old-school B&B viewers. LMAO!!! Tawny was always great fun - too bad that in my recollection her return was just sampled script from 10 years prior.

Edited July 28, 2022 by sheilaforever

[PSPCindy]

I am just a general B&B fan, mostly, but I love Brooke.  I like most characters but some are just standouts.  Stephanie I hated and I loved but she absolutely drove the show, along with Brooke. 

Location shoots are some of my favorite stories because of the incredible beauty involved. Also the former lush sets just made B&B a treat for the eyes to watch.

My favorite period of the show is 1987-mid 1998.  I did really tire of HT leaving  and her character being killed then popping back up, often unbelievably so, to wreak havoc on the show.  I guess my peeve was that HT wanted to do other things but didn't really make it so she came back(over and over).  In contrast, Joanna Johnson came back as a twin and the dynamic was so different I really enjoyed Karen.

Bridge was always my favorite couple, despite some of the writing for Ridge.  OR Ridge only. TK is a terrible Ridge for me. I never get any real passion from him.  But I did love Brooke and Thorne. That coupling drove lots of great story, not the least of which was Stephanie going nuts on Brooke at Big Bear. Thorne and Brooke had such a good friendship that segued into romance.  KKL and WH have great chemistry.  The rose petals showering down on Thorne and Brooke at the end of the wedding ceremony was so romantic. Ah...

Edited July 28, 2022 by PSPCindy

[Joseph]

Me Too! Most people don't seem to realize how different From Caroline Karen actually is, of course the quick Glam up Refine Up she got doesn't exactly help, but I really enjoyed Karen, As both a Unsophisticated Girl in the middle of the Super Rich and as The Scheming Rich Girl

[Videnbas]

I actually think that going back and watching Karen in 1992-1994, the later development of making her a lesbian makes sense. Karen never did seem comfortable with (straight) sex.

And she was really quite different from Caroline, once she got past the phase of trying to transform herself into Caroline.

But on the whole, Karen was strangely out of place on B&B. She never really fit in anywhere. However, I did like that she seemed to have a certain kind of common sense and self-awareness, like ending a relationship if it didn't feel right, and thinking responsibly about intimacy. She seemed to grow into a very "balanced" character. But it seemed like TPTB never quite knew what to do with her. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Videnbas

[soapfave06]

I watched sporadically from 2008 through 2010 and found it entertaining in a bad way but once they did the Brooke sex scandal and introduced Hope in the summer of 2010 I was freaking hooked. Loved it. I was so into the Hope/Liam/Steffy triangle and later Oliver/Aly but they really failed to spice things up after a while. Amber's return was a dud, Deacon should have permanently came back sooner and after a million weddings (which I did enjoy) the Hope/Liam/Steffy triangle needed a psychological interloper like Morgan or Sheila to spice it up. I think I watched through KM leaving as Hope and JMW leaving at some point. 

If they kept Amber to as an interloper for Rick & Maya, properly expanded the Avant family and didn't destroy Aly/Oliver they could have survived all those ins, outs and recasts IMO. 

[sheilaforever]

I couldn't agree more about Karen. Originally supposed to play the Caroline angle as her clone, the writers wisely dropped this and opted to make Karen her own personality. Then, she was supposed to enter the business world but got only three or four episodes were we actually saw her doing business at Spectra. At the same time she was second best option for both Thorne and Connor, mostly insecure about her own sexuality yet she was pushing Brooke to get herself the married man Ridge back. WTF!?

I guess the main cause for failure is that as of January 1993 the latest the writers had zero investment in Karen as a character. She is just there and fitting multiple purposes which contradict each other at times.

Another character which is quite botched is Connor: I have now reached September 1993 and Connor has been in nearly all episodes since his introduction. I had no idea how heavy Brad Bell was pushing this character to the forefront. Right now Connor is even involved in a bitter rivalry with Sheila!? Come 12 months later Connor will be involved in a Statler and Waldorf kind of "relationship" with James Warwick where they talk about Brooke, Taylor and Sheila and totally forget about their own lives. You would never know that Connor was initally the new super alpha male in town. In typical B&B fashion male characters burn out quickly in LA it seems.

 

PS: as of #1621 I experience a tiny bit of discomfort by watching the show: the tone seems to have changed by August 1993. Everyone seems to be bitter with each other. You have Brooke vs. Stephanie and Sally vs. Stephanie which has always been the case. But you also have Connor vs. Sheila and the general atmosphere in LA feels like a typical Aaron Spelling soap. Everybody crosses everbody - I kind of miss the lightheartedness of the Spectras and some good old fun. Macy just had the accident with Kevin and was exposed as an alcoholic doing hidden drinking (which was GOLD!) which makes some wonderful scenes, but naturally it is also rather dark. I'm curious about what's coming up next because Catalina and James Warwick happenend a bit later in my memory and I have no idea what else will be going on.

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by sheilaforever

[Videnbas]

I think Connor didn't become interesting until he was out of Brooke's orbit and hanging out with Karen, Anthony and Macy. Connor and Anthony is the most interesting dynamic I've seen with the Connor character so far (very early 1994).

I think after the point where you're at, the two major things that happen are the introductions of James Warwick and Anthony Armando. Both of these are very welcome additions to the show IMO. And interestingly, they serve the EXACT SAME plot function in two different storylines. It's kind of interesting how Ridge's and Thorne's marriages face almost identical challenges at this point, and how Stephanie gets totally involved in saving Ridge's marriage while refusing to lift a finger to save Thorne's.

(The character of Anthony I find so fascinating I'm going to write a really long and n̶e̶r̶d̶y̶ overanalytical post about him when I have the time.

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) 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Videnbas

[fivethej]

ep # 1330. It's in the clips of the vault.

 

[PSPCindy]

thanks@fivethej!

[Aback]

Pleaseeee I want to read it!

[skebujebu]

I forgot to add that closing the Cafe Russe and Insomnia both in 2010 also made it feel like really the last classic season. Well, Insomnia did continue as Dayzee‘s but still…

[Althea Davis]

I think so too.. it was also the last year the show was surprising and over the top in a good way. I myself loved the disgusting Pose sex scandal of 2010. Then I think Thomas and Brooke were really entertaining for a while but... it the story went sour by the end. 2012 really was the beginning of the end. The new Bridged aka Hope and Steffy were eating the shows oxygen... no Stephanie and no Ridge... and Brooke in a repeat 2001 2002 sex scandal with Bill... it just was recycled. I never think of BB after 2011 as BB. It's a different show for me.

[Joseph]

Yeah they should try to do different things, introduce New Characters, Try to actually partially fill the voids left (Like, we Know Stephanie Can't Be Replaced BUT They Could try to Create a Character To Fill Part of The Matriarch Void instead of Have One of Eric's Sugar Babies saying they are the "Forrester Matriarch" just because they're married to Eric the Pseudo-Patriarch, Pity they droped The Possibility of Taylor getting that Job back in 2013 she was the best choice), Try to give some viable Business Storylines, Try To have actual Fashions again,  Maybe that's not the place to say but i think i had some ideas that might've worked to give the show some new blood,

Imagine: I had in mind Eric kicking Donna when Quinn asks him to give their marriage a new chance, or else she would give a Hell on Court on their divorce, but i think that's not viable anymore, anyway for whatever reason he kicks her, Donna Wises Up she looks herself in the Mirror and Realizes her Age and Her Place as well as her potential, she's not going to be his doormat anymore, In a little reunion with Kate and Brooke she says she's giving Eric up for Good, They wonder if she will actually be able too, and Brooke incentives her to try once more, mentioning Quinn's Demands on the Divorce in Case Eric didn't agree on a reconciliation, Things he couldn't afford to give/lose, Donna says Flat out "It's Not my Destiny to be with Eric, And I'm Sure don't have 30 years to try to make it be, much less him!" Brooke is apalled, Donna Leaves For Paris trying to Find Herself, and Begins a Business Venture "Logan Fashions/Models", While In LA, Miss Brooke thinks she has a rash on her Breast, Turns out to be a mass, She has breast cancer! As she waits to see what she'll have to do to get better and dreading the possibility of a Mastectomy she tries to Keep the truth from everyone despite her anguish, She later discovers she will have to only go through Chemotherapy, She breaks the News, It would be a Perfect chance to force Character Growth on Brooke, facing the Possibility of Dying as well as losing Her looks, She would Wise up herself and try to make peace with the family for Once, Say A true and Heartfelt "I'm Sorry" To her Kids, And Taylor's as well, not to mention the long Line of Men adn Women she hurt along the way, well cutting a bit as she is entering remission, she has an anxiety crisis and is Consoled by Deacon, Ridge walks in and misinterprets the situation, but doesn't say anything, He enters into an affair with Taylor whom Brooke Has recently reconciled with, She walks in on them on the Office but goes out unnoticed, she decides to trust Ridge and holds Out the truth about the remission a little bit just to try to get the truth about the Kiss she saw from him, she gives him opnings for about a week, but then she walks in on them again and Storms in To confront them both, She lashes out and when Ridge confrots her about the Deacon Situation she plainly tells about the truth and says that his lack of trust was no excuse for him to betray her if aything he should've Confronted Her, She then says "SCREW DESTINY" too, It's time for a new beginning somewhere else, she throws a party to announce her remission, as well as her divorce from Ridge, she then says The Only Forrester Things she wants Now are her kids, she proceeds to sell her shares of Forrester to other members of the family as well as the House Ridge Gave her, My Last Scene for Brooke would be On the Airport Before landing the Plane to Paris, after saying goodbye for ALL THE PEOPLE SHE LOVES, She leaves one last message to RJ, whom she tried to reconcile for the past few months despite his unwillingness and his preference to stay at his Boarding School, She then goes away, On the Next Episode We are told The Plane Crashed...

Continues.... (If Anyone Likes IT)

Now Changing Subjects, What was The Year Susan Flannery decided Her Acting was enough? Up to 1995 from what i Saw She still looked Great, But somewhere along the way she kinda gave up on herself, i don't know her looks changed kinda quicly, The character's Style didn't Match Susan's New Personal style, i know she had cancer at a time and that's what eventually led her for That Grey, short spiked Hair Style and Not so flattering Clothes, but was it the only reason she increasigly Preferred less glamorous?

[Videnbas]

Okay, here goes! Anthony Armando - the thesis!  (remember you have been warned)

I am now watching early 1994 episodes (and I have watched a lot of old 1995 clips as well), and I have to say I find the character of Anthony Armando absolutely fascinating because of the way his character arc is structured.

What really sent me down the rabbit hole regarding Anthony was knowing how his story arc in its entirety will play out, and wondering if the writers had his turn to the (very) dark side planned all along, or if it was an afterthought. And the more I see, the more I think they did at least have some idea (or if not, they retraced their steps and made excellent use of character history).

Anthony’s murder of Ivana is, in my opinion, possibly the most evil crime ever committed on this show (even more sadistic and diabolical than any of Sheila’s individual crimes, although of course she beats him in terms of number of victims. But Sheila’s evil is mainly defensive whereas Anthony’s evil is offensive - Sheila is a cornered animal, Anthony is a predator. There is also the element of betrayal - Anthony brutally murdered a woman who loved him and thought that he loved her back - and the way Anthony was not tormented but actually enjoyed thinking about the crime afterwards).

And I found it intriguing to check if there were signs early on in Anthony’s character history that he had this extreme darkness in him. So far, I’d say yes, there are signs but they are subtle - so subtle in fact that they could pass for harmless if one did not know anything about his future storylines. But in hindsight, they become major red flags - Anthony’s arrogance, his emotional manipulation, his casual lies, his offer to show Macy his ”dark side”, his crossing lines without asking for consent. Another dead giveaway early on is how Keith relates to him. Keith has always been portrayed as Macy’s ”guardian angel” - he is an excellent judge of character and sees things as they truly are, and he has always been ”pure” in his intentions towards Macy. The way the show contrasts Keith and Anthony is striking, and does a lot to convince me Anthony was always meant to be nefarious, even ”diabolical”. He is the archetypal Big Bad Wolf right from the start. There are also subtle references to classic myths and literature in his storyline - from Little Red Riding Hood to Shakespeare's Othello.

But what really blew me away was the incredible "mirror symmetry" going on in Anthony's character arc, right from the very beginning. There are so many plot points and details that first occur in Anthony’s introduction storyline, and then return in a more sinister form, in the reverse order, in his exit storyline.

Bear with me...

Anthony’s introduction storyline:
1) Macy and Thorne together (starting point)—>
2) Anthony tries to have his way with Macy in her bedroom (kissing and possibly taking advantage of her sexually) but Thorne’s actions prevent him from succeeding—>
3) Anthony’s big ego makes him convinced Macy likes him although she is really furious with him —>
4) Thorne is adamant that Macy should stay away from Anthony and mentions her putting herself in ”harm’s way”—>
5) Anthony challenges Macy to have a drink with him (reverse psychology to keep her from drinking)—>
6) The "Dead Cat Gambit" - Anthony feigns grief over his (non-existent) dead cat in order to win Macy’s sympathies—>
7) Anthony designs a swimsuit for Macy and manipulates it in order to see Macy with her clothes off against her will—>
8)Anthony appears to become involved with another woman (Sally) but in reality still wants Macy
9) Macy turns Anthony down for Thorne—>
10) Thorne and Macy’s relationship changes (they get a divorce)—>
11) Macy involved with Anthony

Anthony’s exit storyline:
1) Macy involved with Anthony—>
2) Thorne and Macy’s relationship changes in the opposite direction (they get engaged)—>
3) Macy turns Anthony down for Thorne—>
4) Anthony appears to become involved with another woman (Ivana) but in reality still wants Macy
5) Anthony designs a wedding dress for Macy and manipulates it in order to see Macy with her clothes off against her will
6) The "Dead Fiancée Gambit" - Anthony feigns grief over his dead fiancée (whom he himself brutally murdered) in order to win Macy’s sympathies—>
7) Anthony suggests Macy have a drink with him (hoping she will accept)—>
8)Thorne is adamant that Macy should stay away from Anthony and even escapes from prison to get her away from him—>
9) Anthony’s big ego makes him convinced Macy wants to marry him although she really hates him —>
10) Anthony tries to have his way with Macy in her bedroom (taking advantage of her sexually and then killing her) but Thorne’s actions prevent him from succeeding—>
11) Macy and Thorne together (end point)

See the pattern? Anthony’s entire two year run on the show is basically a kind of "palindrome"!

[Althea Davis]

Guys good news. I finally traveled and found my old old laptop and I am currently adding tons of missing episodes from 2003 2004 and 2005... I think I have about 150 200 episodes that are missing. I will try to add everything soon. Just to say I an sorry for a little mistake... I added  3 or 4 episodes in a 2003 folder that were already uploaded. The repeat episodes can be deleted by the admin. I am happy to finally give something to all of you.