The Walking Dead: Discussion Thread

[Ann_SS]

I agree. I like the unpredictably of all these characters. I did not see Rick banishing Carol coming. I did not see Bob desperately protecting the booze. I think that Tyreese is coming back to himself, but he is still explosive.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Ann_SS

[ChitHappens]

13 hours later, and I still don't have a coherent thought about Carol being dismissed. I honestly don't know what to say. I lost a bit of sleep thinking about this. I want to understand Rick, but I think the writers went too far here.

I'm at a loss

[Ann_SS]

I was up late last night thinking about this also. It really a hard one for me. I have seen the arguments on various boards trying to compare what various actions that happened in the past with Rick to what Carol did. It is a false equivalency, of course.

Carol murdered two helpless sick people. They were isolated and locked in the cells. One or both of them might have even survived. If Carol thinks that she did nothing wrong, why didn't she own up to it and tell everyone? In fact, why hasn't she made the case to the council that everyone who is sick should be killed? Because she knows what she did was wrong and everyone would turn on her if she admitted what she had done and argued that others should be killed.

I think that Rick is right about Carol being dangerous to the others in the same way that Shane was dangerous. l don't even think that most of the survivors would be split about her actions. I mean, who would be willing to go out on a run with her? Or to be alone with her? Or leave their family alone with her? I could see Maggie killing Carol rather than entrusting her with Glenn's well-being.

Yet, I am not convinced that banishing Carol was Rick's decision alone to make. It seems to me that the council should voted.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Ann_SS

[DRW50]

I think the Council is probably too broken down at this point (Sasha is near-death, Hershel will likely be sick soon [wasn't he on the council?]) to participate.

There are two sides to this but when people just say "oh yeah? Rick did this" or "oh yeah? Carl did this," I feel like it takes away from the damage of Carol's actions and the ramifications of them. I'm not sure if they can trust Carol now, because she seems to have lost more and more of the capacity for basic feeling and empathy. What if she goes back and tells Maggie that it's time for Hershel and Glenn to die? What if this helps push Beth toward another suicide attempt? Or what if this convinces Beth to kill Hershel or Glenn? She's just a loose cannon in her current mindset. I hate saying that, because Carol has been one of my favorites for most of the show's run, but she is a stranger at the moment.

Melissa McBride interview. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/walking-dead-spoilers-carol-banished-652697

Behind the scenes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-Y-xTYnivs

Edited November 4, 2013 by DRW50

[Vee]

I don't think Carol is a sociopath. She expressed remorse, she felt bad. But she's also gone to a hard place, which I bought in the storytelling after last year and parts of this season. As McBride says in the above interview, she told Lizzie not to call her Mom because it hurt too much. I saw that in her performance and delivery last night. Carol later slips herself and basically calls the two girls her daughters when speaking to the strangers in town, and you can see Rick react to it.

I think she had the right reasons, but ultimately it was wrong. I don't think she should have been banished for it, and I don't think we're done with Carol this season.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Vee

[Ann_SS]

One thing I give Rick credit for is making the painful decision to banish Carol relatively quickly. He dithered far too long with Shane who he should have let die when he was at that depot with Randall.

I think Rick took Carol on the run to figure out what to do about her crimes and that he was testing to see if there was how humanity was left in her, but her every response and comment showed him not much.

[Vee]

I think he was wrong about that, though. This whole season Carol's shown plenty of humanity, IMO. But because she didn't gnash her teeth or spill a water tank when she was alone with Rick - while focused on the task at hand - she's not human enough? She said she was sorry, that it was awful, but that she felt it had to be done. I think she was keeping her guard up with him. Falling apart is not something she does anymore, not with other people around. She only does it alone.

[DRW50]

For me it wasn't about her not falling apart, it was her justifying what she did (they would have choked to death on their blood anyway), her disconnection from her past, her pushing the hippies when they were clearly not suited to the task, and her wanting to leave the guy behind when she and Rick put them in that situation. It was just all hardness with no hints of vulnerability. I could say she was putting on a front, but that's still a dangerous place for Rick to be, as she spends so much time around his children and his closest friends.

[Vee]

I think they're all disconnected though, in one way or another. They have to be. And I thought she was vulnerable in that conversation, when she did reminisce with Rick. And when she talked to him at the end. I didn't think she was all hard, more very matter of fact.

I can see why that scares Rick, but I still think he was wrong to not take her back to either the council, or to mull over the truth more before debating whether to tell everyone. She's not Shane, and she's not the Governor. She's just not Rick. I don't think she was likely to do something so rash again, especially not with him knowing the truth. Carol's not interested in power, she's interested in practicality. She was right that they had to leave the hippie dude, though she was wrong to suggest sending them out there - and she likely did it knowing they might not make it, leaving the prison with fewer people to feed, which is also, on a certain level, morally wrong. But they volunteered. They asked. If they make it, they're an asset; if they don't, they're not a burden. And in the zombie apocalypse, that kind of wrong is utterly practical.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Vee

[DRW50]

I understand what you're saying. It's the scene in the car that got to me the most. The way she just casually rationalized what she did. It frightened me. That's where I most thought, "If she wants to do this again, she will."

I'm having a tough time with this because I just don't feel like Carol would do this in the first place. If they were the only two people who would ever be infected with it and everyone was dithering about what to do - maybe. But that wasn't the case.

[Vee]

I didn't think she could do something like that until I saw her with Carl after he saw her with the kids in the library. She spoke to him the same way she does Rick; she treated him like a man and a potential ally or obstacle. No one else in the group does that. Then I knew, and when it happened I knew it was her.

When the season opened the walkers were at the fences all the time, there was evidence of sabotage, then there was a potential plague, close quarters, carriers. Carol was desperate to preserve what they have, which was security and stability in the prison.

In the plague era, medieval times, what was done to Karen and David was commonplace. Things may not be totally medieval in the zombie apocalypse but they're pretty damn close. That doesn't mean it was acceptable for her to kill them, but it was a logical assumption IMO - these are the only two exhibiting symptoms at that time, and with them knowing next to nothing about the disease at that particular moment, there was the potential to say disposing of them could have stopped an epidemic in its tracks and saved the community. (Although, Karen and David had already been isolated, which makes what she did plain overreaction.) It was with that mindset that she did it. I don't agree with it, but I very much understand it.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Vee

[Juliajms]

She did say that they were drowning in their own blood, so I think she also rationalized it as a mercy killing.

[Ann_SS]

Again, if Carol was so sure that she was doing nothing wrong, why did she not tell others on the council what she was going to do and get their consent? Why did she not confess when Tyreese was losing his mind and beating up Rick? Surely "did what she had to" kind of person like Carol could defend herself to the rest of the survivors like she did with Rick. RME. There is no defense for Carol. Karen and David are invisible people who the audience did not know and do not care about which is exactly why they were chosen as her victims. If Carol had killed Glenn or Daryl, some of he people defending her on the various boards would have been singing a different tune. They would be calling for her head.

TWD continues to get high ratings, 6.8 in key 18 to 49 demo: http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2013/11/04/the-walking-dead-draws-13-3-million-total-viewers-up-from-last-week/21344

Edited November 4, 2013 by Ann_SS

[Darn]

This season is getting progressively better. Richer. It's reminding me more of the 2nd season (which I enjoyed, minus Lori) and the first half of the 3rd. I think the ratings will only continue to rise, because you can still watch the entire series up to now over a long weekend. That's something you can't do with the best show on TV at the moment, The Good Wife. This show has so much going for it, great characters played by great actor and plenty of action and character study. Great stuff.

Carol wasn't right or wrong, she was resilient. That seems to be her defining characteristic. Whereas Rick or Tyrese let the deaths of their wife/girlfriend define and destroy them, Carol lost her daughter and found a way to survive. The women on this show are proving so much more mentally sound than the men.

[quartermainefan]

Carol didn't tell the other what she was doing I assume because she knew they would disapprove and from her point of view it had to be done. She isn't a risk of killing more people because clearly other people have been getting sick and she isn't killing anybody. With the information she has now, Carol knows killing won't stop the spread therefore there is no reason to kill. She gave it her best shot to stop the sickness from spreading just like she thinks teaching kids how to use a knife and kill is giving the kids their best shot to survive. If there is one thing about Carol it is that her reasoning always makes sense and has a logic to it, and her motive is always for the larger group to survive. That is more than her critics can say, who let emotion and mental weakness drive their actions. One guy wants to kill for booze, herschel wants to infect himself just so he can sleep at night feeling he did his best, Tyrese wants to place himself in situations where he can die by walker assisted suicide, Rick wants to plant veggies even though his leadership skills are needed, Michonne wanted to wander the area looking for the Governor on a revenge trip...only Carol approaches the situation with almost Spock-like coldness and logic. It may be faulty logic at the time, but she gives everything her best given what she has to work with.