5 hours ago, soapfan770 said:

I always felt like Betsy should have easily returned at any time in the 90's, whether it was when Dani came back in 1994 or any time Emily had gone off the deep end again and needed support. I could easily see Betsy entwining herself with some Grimaldi and/or Kasnoff relative and staying in Oakdale til the very end. I have no idea who would have played her but I could have seen the show bringing in a slightly younger actress around KMH's age to play Betsy. 

I realized my wording wasn't the best upthread. I meant Johnson, due to her popularity playing McColl (or, at least she didn't inspire any hate mail, none that I am aware of), I think she could have been seamless as Betsy. Kim had chemistry with Eileen and, as they brought back Scott Bryce briefly in the 90s, they also had an easy chemistry.

A lot of people talk about the Stewarts but wasn't it originally the Hughes family and the Lowell family? Why doesn't anybody seem to mention them? Was Ellen the sole Lowell left?

 

I am reading this book and am on the chapter titled "The World Turns" and according to this book Phillips didn't want to work with Procter & Gamble but felt she had no choice. She felt insulted that P&G didn't seem to trust her ideas yet still found a way to adopt them. For instance, they doubted her when she pitched the idea of expanding the soap to thirty minutes from fifteen minutes when she was about to debut ATWT, yet quickly announced that their next soap The Edge Of Night would be thirty minutes. This was after she had to practically fight them in order to bring The Guiding Light to television (P&G once thought TGL would never be successful as a television series). In fact, Phillips had to pay for the pilot to be produced and was never reimbursed for it, even after TGL became a hit show. I'm beginning to see why she may have been so bitter.

Another interesting tidbits, a number of actors for the first season of ATWT had been blacklisted actors, which might not have endeared Phillips to the sponsors who ruled television.

Fascinating account of the early days of television. In some aspects, certain things have not changed.

It makes me wonder what ATWT could really have been if P&G had a little more belief in the show beyond just being a potential "cash cow". Perhaps we would have gotten a better archived and a larger amount of episodes that actually got preserved, instead of wiped.

Edited August 8, 20214 yr by DramatistDreamer

31 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

A lot of people talk about the Stewart's but wasn't it originally the Hughes family and the Lowell family? Why doesn't anybody seem to mention them? Was Ellen the sole Lowell left?

 

The Lowells were kind of swallowed up by, or morphed into, the Stewarts. Jim died in 1957 and he and Claire just had a daughter (Ellen) so when she married David the last name was lost. Judge Lowell stayed around until the late 70s but he didn't have any other children other than Jim. So, the name was lost. Claire died in 1970 but had lost the last name Lowell when she married Doug Cassen and then, later, Michael Shea. There was really no way to keep the Lowell name alive. They tried to do it by naming one of Annie's quads Lowell but the quads weren't on the show long. So, technically, Dan, Annie, Dee, Betsy, Emily, the quads, Dani, Daniel and Allison were all Lowells (through the bloodline if not the name). 

Edited August 7, 20214 yr by Bill Bauer

To go back to the above discussion about Kathryn Hays - @Vee mentioned this movie to me and we were both surprised to see Kathryn Hays has a notable role. It's called Ladybug, Ladybug, and is in the "stop a nuclear holocaust" film cycle of the early '60s. Kathryn is mostly in the first half of the film, as a pregnant teacher. There are a number of scenes that just rely on us seeing her in non-dialogue situations, subtle shifts of emotion on her face. I remember what Kathryn said in the Paley center videos (not sure if they are still on Youtube) about how she felt as if Irna was writing moments from her (Kathryn's) life and so on - it makes me wonder if Irna saw this film and was moved by how much Kathryn did with pure introspective moments, which is what soaps, especially in those years. were about. It makes me all the sadder nothing of early Kim is available. 

(I should warn some of her scenes have a very annoying alarm blaring throughout) 

 

Edited August 7, 20214 yr by DRW50

Two colleagues of mine, that I sometimes, who I have a long-running e-mail dialogue with, are reading the book that I just finished (When Women Invented Television). I had no idea. It would have been nice to  have been 'on the same page', so to speak. Oh well, maybe we can have a virtual book discussion once they've completed the book. With our infrequent communication, that probably won't be until New Years.

On 8/7/2021 at 3:35 PM, DramatistDreamer said:

I realized my wording wasn't the best upthread. I meant Johnson, due to her popularity playing McColl (or, at least she didn't inspire any hate mail, none that I am aware of), I think she could have been seamless as Betsy. Kim had chemistry with Eileen and, as they brought back Scott Bryce briefly in the 90s, they also had an easy chemistry.

A lot of people talk about the Stewart's but wasn't it originally the Hughes family and the Lowell family? Why doesn't anybody seem to mention them? Was Ellen the sole Lowell left?

 

 

 

Ellen was the sole Lowell heir. 

 

On 8/7/2021 at 4:00 PM, Bill Bauer said:

So, technically, Dan, Annie, Dee, Betsy, Emily, the quads, Dani, Daniel and Allison were all Lowells (through the bloodline if not the name). 

Good point for sure! Also of interesting note is Dan, Betsy, Emily, Allison weren't actual biological Stewarts either but were all biological Lowells so the bloodline stayed all the way to the end. 

Yeah, but the Lowell bloodline connection was never emphasized as long as I was a viewer.

I always hear people rail about the Stewart family being tossed out, as if they were one of the series' original families, with no mention of the Lowells. I actually had to read about the Lowell family to find out that they existed. As much as people complain that the Stewart family were written out of existence, Emily and Susan both continued to go by the Stewart last name, through marriages, divorces, until the end and from what I remember, so did Allison, although she was a McDermott. All were there until the end. As Stewarts.

2 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Yeah, but the Lowell bloodline connection was never emphasized as long as I was a viewer.

I always hear people rail about the Stewart family being tossed out, as if they were one of the series' original families, with no mention of the Lowells. I actually had to read about the Lowell family to find out that they existed. As much as people complain that the Stewart family were written out of existence, Emily and Susan both continued to go by the Stewart last name, through marriages, divorces, until the end and from what I remember, so did Allison, although she was a McDermott. All were there until the end. As Stewarts.

The show really should have kept Ellen until the end to keep Emily and Allison in check, Lord knows they really needed someone like her around. I appreciated Allison's friendship with Nancy (The pottery class incident was hilarious) it would have been nice if she had Ellen on her side too. 

3 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Yeah, but the Lowell bloodline connection was never emphasized as long as I was a viewer.

I always hear people rail about the Stewart family being tossed out, as if they were one of the series' original families, with no mention of the Lowells. I actually had to read about the Lowell family to find out that they existed. As much as people complain that the Stewart family were written out of existence, Emily and Susan both continued to go by the Stewart last name, through marriages, divorces, until the end and from what I remember, so did Allison, although she was a McDermott. All were there until the end. As Stewarts.

I remember Susan going on at Kim about how she felt Kim didn't like "The Stewart Women" and I was like um... Other than Emily you and your daughter aren't Stewart women. And why did Allison change her last name from McDermott to Stewart anyway?  They had a great chance to revive the Lowell/Stewart legacy with Dani but the less of those scene when she called Craig "Daddy" in a sexual manner the better.

I also recall doing some research about the Lowell family and wondering why the TPTB never brought back any of the Quads to be part of young adult canvas? Then again they were too busy giving backstory to Janet Ciccone and bringing on Alan and AJ Quartermaine and Lucy and Kevin from General Hospital. 

Edited August 9, 20214 yr by Forever8

You can blame EP at the time John Valente for firing Patricia Border, Ellen.

Susan Marie Snyder discussed it during her interview. 

Edited August 9, 20214 yr by Soapsuds

4 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Yeah, but the Lowell bloodline connection was never emphasized as long as I was a viewer.

I always hear people rail about the Stewart family being tossed out, as if they were one of the series' original families, with no mention of the Lowells. I actually had to read about the Lowell family to find out that they existed. As much as people complain that the Stewart family were written out of existence, Emily and Susan both continued to go by the Stewart last name, through marriages, divorces, until the end and from what I remember, so did Allison, although she was a McDermott. All were there until the end. As Stewarts.

 

No, they were never emphasized after Judge Lowell died (or moved off) but that was because the name "Lowell" went with him. Like I said, though, the Lowell descendants were there till the end. Of course, unless someone had been watching from the beginning or was read-up on the history, they never would have known these people were "Lowells" because they didn't carry the last name. However, I will say that it was great that they would throw a bone here and there to in-the-know viewers. I remember Ellen telling Brock in the late 80s or early 90s (can't remember exactly when) about Judge Lowell and Jim Lowell. I also remember and even more shocking reference to the Lowells when Emily told Tom she thought baby Daniel looked like Judge Lowell! It was a particularly shocking reference because the writers at the time had ZERO regard for history. I'm sure 95% of the viewers at that time didn't know who she was talking about. I really appreciated the reference though! You are right that it was bizarre that Susan would keep the name Stewart and Allison would take on the name Stewart. But I guess that was just a way for the writers to keep the Stewart name alive. By that time, there were no male Stewarts to keep the name alive unless you count Stewart Cushing. But he hadn't been on the show in ages and even though he was a Stewart he didn't use the last name. Probably because it would have made him Stewart Stewart. 

Did Allison cut ties with her father? I don't remember whether that was discussed or not. The writing was so bad for teenage Allison. The writing for just about everyone was subpar by then though.

Now that it's been mentioned, I do recall a Judge Lowell name drop in a scene between Ellen, Emily and Brock. Just coming off of that book where Irna Phillips discussed why she made so many of her characters from the professional classes, particularly when she decided to create ATWT.

Of course, by the time the show had brought back Allison as a meth-head, just about every long time character's reputation had been savaged. Talk about character assassination.

5 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Did Allison cut ties with her father? I don't remember whether that was discussed or not. The writing was so bad for teenage Allison. The writing for just about everyone was subpar by then though.

 

Yes. If I remember correctly, she was mad at Larry for cheating on Susan and being a deadbeat dad after Larry divorced Susan and took off. That was her justification for changing her name to Stewart because it was her Mom's last name. Although why Susan wouldn't keep McDermott or revert back to her maiden name Burke and instead go back to using the last name of a previous ex is a mystery. 

Well Susan was actually a Burke and her parents were on the show in the 60's but then disappeared.

It's so annoying that writers don't bother to address these family ties. Some mention by Susan at some point about her parents.

I proposed at some point that there could have been another Lowell, Ellen's younger brother. He could have played some of Dan Stewart's stories in the 60's rather than the drastic and ultimately destructive aging of Dan.

Then when Dan reached adulthood in the 70's,Ellen would have had more to do.

On the subject of the quads, they were a wasted opportunity.

They didn't all have to return at once, just like the Snyders appeared one at atime.

Their names bothered me - Nancy, Greg , Maria, Lowell.

Lowell was a good choice, but why not Claire(after Ellen's mom) James (after Ellen's dad) and Daniel after her deceased half brother) All much more meaningful and tied to history.

2 minutes ago, Bill Bauer said:

Yes. If I remember correctly, she was mad at Larry for cheating on Susan and being a deadbeat dad after Larry divorced Susan and took off. That was her justification for changing her name to Stewart because it was her Mom's last name. Although why Susan wouldn't keep McDermott or revert back to her maiden name Burke and instead go back to using the last name of a previous ex is a mystery. 

Every parent was pretty much a deadbeat by the last decade of the show, 🤣.

11 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Every parent was pretty much a deadbeat by the last decade of the show, 🤣.

LOL. Very true!