As The World Turns Discussion Thread

[vetsoapfan]

True, but Goutman was present during both writers' terms, and JP's tenure still featured more screen-time for the vets than Sheffer's did. Helen Wagner once approached Sheffer personally and requested more appearances on the show. In an interview later, he said that although Wagner was the matriarch, he was going to continue writing the series as he saw fit. This suggested to me that HS had at least a certain degree of control over the stories he told and the actors he showcased. And clearly, Sheffer had his favorites. I believe he (or someone at P&G) had an issue against Eileen Fulton, who was basically marginalized to the status of an under-fiver during Sheffer's tenure. 

Penny was such a pivotal, beloved heroine with a staunch fanbase. I knew from the moment Phoebe Dorin appeared that the audience would close ranks and protest. Viewers never accepted another Mary Ryan on Ryan's Hope after Kate Mulgrew left. Even though the first recast, Mary Carney, was good, TPTB gave up on her almost immediately, but then the second recast, Kathleen Tolan, was HORRENDOUS. Replacing Tolan with the better-but-still-tepid Nicolette Goulet failed too. And don't even get me started on the misfires surrounding the "new" Alice Frames on AW. Yikes. Some actors truly cannot be replaced, and most of us know by instinct who they are.

Yes, that was an opening to keep Paul Stewart's legacy and place in the show's history alive. Sadly, Stewart Cushing disappeared from Oakdale like many other members of the Lowell/Stewart family, never to be seen again. That TPTB never mined that clan for new characters to introduce in later years indicated to me the lack of knowledge or interest producers and writers had in ATWT's history.

[P.J.]

Exactly. That narrative exists well into the 70's as well. One of the stressors in Bob and Jennifer's marriage is the fact she *gasp!* wanted to continue her nursing career. 

[Paul Raven]

I think P&G were active in getting rid of or diminishing vet performers.

This goes back to the 70's when Teri Keane and later Mandel Kramer were dropped from EON.

Then there were the firings at GL when Doug Marland was told to stop writing for Barbara, Adam and Steve.

Beverly Penberthy dropped from AW, Billi Lou Watt at SFT and so on.

If anything I think Goutman might have fought to have the vets kept on.

[Soapsuds]

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Julianne interviews for Mary & George.

[DramatistDreamer]

Very cool @Soapsuds! Were the top photos taken at a convention of some kind? Three actresses who should have made appearances on ATWT before the series ended for good. I look forward to watching Julianne Moore’s interviews!

[Soapsuds]

It is from this past weekend's Hollywood Show in Burbank. A meet and greet fan event. Most of the cast of Dallas was there having a reunion besides the meet and greet. ATWT stars were there too! Plus other actors from various shows.

I posted the Dallas pics on the Dallas thread.

I love me some Julianne Moore!  

Edited March 5 by Soapsuds

[NothinButAttitude]

I like Sheffer, but he had many flaws. I did not know that Helen Wagner asked him for more appearances and he ignored her. That was a trash move for him to cast her aside. He didn't handle the likes of Kim, Bob, Nancy, and Lisa real well. Honestly, he suffered with the Hughes for the most part. Carly was my favorite, but he overdosed her at times. 

RE: Paul--When they did a RETCON on Emily's embryo story with Larry, which was gross by the way, they should've cast the younger that played Emily's son as one of Annie & Jeff's quads or a son of Stewart. Again, the history is there. I don't know why any writer wouldn't use it. I feel like it kills them to read up on the show's history, which for me has been fun. 

[vetsoapfan]

I will grudgingly admit that a writer should have the power to write a show as he sees fit, but only to a point. When you take over a long-running series, you simply cannot cut off its roots and drastically alter its tone and style without severely damaging the program.  If you assumed the reigns of, say, DALLAS, no one in power would allow you to ignore and marginalize the Ewing family. TPTB of the original Star Trek would not permit you to kill off Spock and write out Kirk and Bones. If you accept the job of writing a beloved franchise, its your obligation to keep essential components of it intact.

What i find most offensive about the Sheffer/Wagner interaction is not just that he turned down her request, but that he spoke openly about it in the press. How humiliating for Wagner, a beloved original cast member and lynchpin of the program, to have her participation be undervalued so publicly. Sheffer should have been gracious enough to keep such a private conversation private.

Agnes Nixon, Pat Falken Smith, Claire Labine, Douglas Marland, and a few other writers were rightfully applauded for studying the history of each soap they took over from other writers, and using the past effectively. I don't think a lot of scribes even bother. Pamela Long at TGL sure didn't know the history. Unless I am misremembering, I believe Ellen Dolan once said that Hogan Sheffer did not know that John Dixon was Margo's father. 

When fans of the soaps know more about them than the people writing and producing them, you know there's a problem.

Edited March 5 by vetsoapfan

[adrnyc]

It's interesting to read people's issues with how the shows "vets" were used during the last 10 years of the show. Having originally watched just those years, I considered Bob, Kim, and Lucinda a huge part of the show when I watched. Bob and Kim's marriage were the stability of the show. Lucinda had tons of storylines with both Lily and Rose as well as Worldwide and her cancer. Oh, and her boyfriend who was actually into Luke.

Lisa as well. Sure she had no romantic storyline but she was around a lot. Nancy was in her 80s in the last decade. There were times (even in the Sheffer era) where all the actress could do was sit in a chair. That's rather limiting to her storyline options. 

I think people also have to consider that, during those years, other "vets" were Lily, Holden, Ben, Jack and Carly who certainly got a lot of screen time.

We also got to see grown up versions of core families.

Hughes: Adam, Christopher, Casey

Munson/Ryan: Paul, Jennifer

Montgomery/Walsh: Bryant, Lucy

I don't know where this idea that the vets weren't used enough comes from.

[NothinButAttitude]

That's the problem. I never understood how a writer could take the position and not learn the history. Or at least ask someone about the history. Yes, Sheffer got the show out of slump, but as we both agree, he handled many of the vets poorly. It hurts my heart to hear that Helen Wagner had to plead with him to give her more airtime and he dismissed her. That does not sit well with me. I wondering if other writers tried to challenge him or just opted not to, to stay employed. And that is embarrassing that Hogan didn't know Margo was John's daughter. That probably makes sense as to why he wrote Larry Bryggman off the show, which was a criminal act in itself. 

I  do think that Hogan was trying to keep up with GH (I know he was obsessed with GH), which was he successful at, but it alienated so many loyal, long-term fans in the process. 

I beg to differ. 

Bob and Kim were reduced to talk-to characters. They were only really brought out the mothballs for holiday episodes or when Christopher was in peril. And Christopher did not really stay a mainstay; he was cast aside once his arcs with Abigail and Allison ended. Chris should've been the lead of the show from that time to the end. Not Craig. Not Jack. Not Holden. 

Lisa was a surrogate to Bonnie at times and would get in the mix of Barbara's antics, but she barely did anything too. 

Yes, he did do right by Lucinda as he kept her busy, but that was at the extension of her being a foil to Craig or tagging along behind Lily/Rose. 

All the vets on this show were still viable characters that should've been deeply involved in story.

Any WOAK story, Kim should've been involved. 

Any hospital story, Bob should've been involved.

Lisa should've been heavily involved in the BRO stories with Carly and Babs. 

The last huge vets story I remember is the Rick Dekker story (the original one), but that was more about Allison than anyone else. 

[MarlandFan]

Very true.  Time and again the writers (and casting department) dropped the ball with Chris.  He should have become the "new" Tom; the lead male character of the show.  It would have been a natural progression; he was connected/related to almost every character on the show.  But somehow he was always portrayed as a disappointing, second-rate son.  So much wasted potential.

 

 

 

Edited March 5 by MarlandFan

[NothinButAttitude]

I do think that at the end when Daniel Cosgrove (my least favorite rendition) occupied the role they were finally starting to put in the role of lead, but I also think that was partly because he was latched to Katie--a pairing I loathed. I just had a hard time with Chris ever wanting to be with Katie after she accused him of stalking her during the Endicott arc. I don't even really remember her being remorseful and giving him a proper apology. 

 

[adrnyc]

I feel that Christopher came down to bland casting. I can think of 4 Chris variations that were just "bland likable white man." Some would argue it was the writing. Some would argue it was the acting. I'm for the latter. Just in terms of actors, they never had a Chris who could be the lead of the show in the way that Jon Hensley and Michael Park could.

I remember Kim always being active at WOAK. She was a "grandmother character" at this point and, by definition, those characters are always going to be characters that are "talk to" characters. I remember Kim being involved with Katie and Brad and having her heart attack at WOAK in the last few years. She was involved with Luke and Maddie. She and Bob were the "happily married couple." As a writer, I can tell you, there is no story there. The story becomes about them relating to their children. It's a natural progression of any story that goes on for 40 or 50 years. 

I remember Lisa as being involved in the Barbara/Carly storylines. Fashions still existed as a store on the "street set" we were given towards the end. (Not one of my favorites but when the budget is cut, you've got to create some generic set where people can meet.) She had been married 8 times (as she just said to Issac on the March '00 episode I watched a few days ago.) Her romantic storylines were over. As mentioned, she was attached to Bonnie for one thing. Now I'll be the first to admit that in the final four or so years of the show, she disappeared, absolutely. But that old gal had some story left in her in the early aughts - again...in relation to other characters.

Now that I've reached the aughts in my watch, as I've said before I will be interested to see how I feel about watching them having now seen the 80s and 90s.

And having now watched what's available of the late 70s and then 80s, and read the synopsis of the series since its beginning, it cracks me up when people think the quadruplets should've been brought back. Maybe it's a shame that the Stewart family got boiled down to Emily, Susan (another long term vet who was used a lot in the aughts) and Allison but hey, at least they were still there as opposed to the Lowells. 

Why does no one ever complain about the Lowell's grandchildren not popping up? 

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[DRW50]

I think Sheffer's idea of soap was just too cynical and dark to fit veteran characters. I still remember great choices like having Jessica and Margo, longtime close friends, fight over a man - this not long after Jessica had been raped. 

I will credit Goutman with not dumping vets for quick cash. That's better than many managed.

If we get into the realm of spent characters, a character like Lily felt more spent to me in ATWT's last decade than Bob or Kim, but then I wasn't writing the show...

[vetsoapfan]

I appreciate conversations like this, in which posters can hold different beliefs about issues without becoming enraged and flinging ad hominem insults around. We've all seen what social media can be like, LOL.

I respectfully disagree  about the use of the vets in the 2000s.

Back in the day, while Sheffer was writing the show,  another message board would post daily cast appearances, and there were times when Lisa went weeks without being seen.

Around the same time, Sheffer was asked in an interview why we barely saw Kim, whom viewers missed and clamored to see more often. He gave a reassuring reply that, soon, "We are going to be seeing a lot of Kim." But...we didn't.

One thing that grated on my nerves the most is having to endure Helen Wagner's rare cameos on the show being used to prop up Katie. 

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 Chris Goutman referred to her as "America's Princess," but I could not stand her.

I would NEVER refer to folks like Jack and Carly as "vets." I regarded them, like Katie, as over-exposed interlopers.

The problem about the new generation of certain families was that so many of the actors were poorly cast and/or did not stick around for long. It was difficult to care about them one way or the other. IMHO, the absolute WORST was Roger Howarth, such a mistake in the role of Paul.

I do believe the "vet situation" improved under Jean Passanante, as much as I cringe at having to applaud her for anything, LOL!