As The World Turns Discussion Thread

[DramatistDreamer]

 

Oh, I remember seeing that interview on the WLS blog.

 

Yes, there may be a kernel of truth to notion that ATWT and probably GL fans were viewed as not being as aggressive, if you regard passion as renting skywriting planes and daily protests in front of the studio but FWIW, people knew that P&G had no intention of preserving those shows as they had already turned down previous offers.

Compare that with the ABC soaps, AMC & OLTL where even in the cliff-hanger ending of AMC (which left a lot of AMC fans angry but seemed to leave open the possibility that the story wasn't over), there seemed to be more hope that some other entity could pick up those soaps.

 

However, I absolutely refuse to accept any part of Goutman's fiction that he did not have anything to do with the show's ultimate demise.  Alienating, marginalizin and dismissing seasoned talent, terrible character re-writes without regard for the show's history and a narrow focus on some characters and stories that loyal fans had little regard for, of course, had a corrosive effect on the show.

Who does he think he's fooling?

Please register in order to view this content

Edited April 2, 2018 by DramatistDreamer

[juppiter]

I can see the argument that ATWT was likely doomed no matter what — but Chris Goutman seems to have accepted this and stayed on to collect his paycheck anyway. 

 

Chris Goutman has talent. I recently watched an episode he directed in 2000 and it was great — high production values, suspense, the whole nine yards. I was shocked, because he had the show on autopilot the last 5-6 years.

 

It was likely doomed no matter what. But if he wasn’t going to try to save it, he should have stepped aside and let someone else try (then again, we could have ended up with Peapack, so maybe I should shut up.)

[DramatistDreamer]

Then, at least the show might've had the opportunity to go to rest with more dignity in its final years.

[Mitch]

I remember watching that scene and I was like "DAMN...kiss him back you idiot!"  Yea, did not like the storyline..as a) we knew that even dumb flighty Luke was not going to fool around with Luinda's man...and...really...LL could have gotten a million times better then Luke...I hate the sterotype of an older gay guy always chasing after the twink...even if he is not that attractive..(okay, I admit..it happens too much in the gay world) but it would have been good to watch LL's character with an another "adult"  man...Henry would have been preferable!!

 

[P.J.]

 

 

Network TV is still generally too conservative to honestly do a gay storyline. 

 

If they didn't have the balls to do it (if not completely honestly) at least respectfully, they shouldn't have pimped it and acted like they were. There was probably a lot more value story wise, in letting Luke's coming out play out over time, instead of rushing into a (IMO, poor) recast and inflicting Van Hansis on the world. 

 

That jumping on the bed crap might have set back TV 25 years. 

 

And I still find it ironic that Zimmer pulled her kid from the role, and he wound up on Animal Kingdom...portraying a closeted gay.

 

And I reject Goutman's BS. ATWT was doomed from B&B's premiere, but AMC and OLTL with aggressive fanbases, only last three months and one year more?  

 

RME. Excuses, excuses...

Edited April 5, 2018 by P.J.

[P.J.]

I will say this---Goutman is a talented director. One only has to sit through the stale direction of GH to see that.

[All My Shadows]

I think TV in general is too ADHD to do any character-centered storylines justice. The audience, by and large, doesn't have the patience for it, and TPTB don't have the talent for it, or so it seems. Soaps were once the best place for those loooooooong-simmering stories, but you can't even find it in daytime anymore.

While I mostly liked Luke's initial coming out story over 2006, they really mucked it up by the instacoupling that I will refrain from mentioning by name. It was an extremely superficial story that was lauded with superficial praise. It's been ten whole years now, and I'm still wondering...did Luke really fall in love with That Dude because he helped him picked up a box of VCR tapes???

IMO, Goutman has it right. I've accepted that ATWT and GL's survival had very little to do with their ratings or any critical praise. P&G and CBS, especially, have expressed time and time again that they just were ready to be rid of the embarrassing old antiques that were costing them too much money to maintain. No one involved with either entity could have given a rat's ass about the quality or integrity of either show.

PS - Hasn't Jake Weary gone on record in recent years to dispel the rumor that Kim pulled him off ATWT because his character was going to be gay? I never understood why it was so hard for people to believe that a 15-year-old wanted to do 15-year-old things.

Edited April 6, 2018 by All My Shadows

[juppiter]

 

ATWT doomed by B&B premiere is surely BS, as ATWT beat B&B in the ratings for, what, 8 years following that?

 

But ATWT was probably doomed by other things. Bad demos. Declining ratings for soaps in general. Lack of interest in the show from P&G. Still, not an excuse for Goutman, who pretty much gave up circa 2005.

 

Absolutely. The 2000 episode Goutman directed where Katie is confronted by her stalker and forced to confess to sabotaging Molly is damn good. I watched it recently and it is soap opera at its most soapoperiest. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by juppiter

[P.J.]

 

When Tyler Perry is the epitome of a successful creator/writer/showrunner----I tend to agree and fear for civilization in general.

 

Luke's coming out to Holden was well done. The rest of it---from Lily/Damian and the rest of the plot driven drivel until the end of the show was embarrassing. Luke was every inch Lily's son---completely unaware of his selfish, narcissistic, and self-righteous and condescending attitude in dealing with people. The way he outted Noah because he was hot for him just showed how immature he was.

 

I've accepted that a lot of things ultimately killed the show. (corporate greed, suit interference, changing viewership tendencies in the cable and digital age) And if Goutman had said that (although I haven't watched the WLS thing myself), then fine. But going back more than 20 years to blame it on a timeslot change is ridiculous.

 

I haven't read anything from Weary myself about it. IIRC, it was around the time LaZimmer was in tense contract negotiations herself that suddenly "Jake" wanted out of the role. If it walks like a duck...it's most likely a duck.

 

 

Well, why deal in fact, right?

 

Maybe getting out from the Ex Producer chair just fired Goutman's director cylinders. But I always knew when he directed an episode. Building suspense in an episode now just seems to be about jump cuts.

[DRW50]

 

I don't think they ever could have done much with Luke with or without the "Nuke" story because Van Hansis was a very limited actor. Even the story that some fans said would have been superior was basically just another variation of a violent straight man that Luke was in love with (if they had become a couple it would have just been another self-hating gay story and yet another Snyder love story built on abuse). I think that the initial story with Noah was genuinely praised because it truly was new for soaps to see kissing and an idea of passion between men. Everything after that was a copout. They clearly did not want to do more with Luke and Noah once the backlash hit, and the half-hearted nature of what they did was just a slog and a waste of time. Luke was mostly just interesting when he was written as a selfish brat, which they could have done something with (especially building up his relationship with Lucinda), but by that time the show had no idea what to do with any of their younger characters. 

 

Exactly. Maybe Goutman is right about ATWT never having a chance. He probably is. That doesn't take away from what a soulless vanity project his work was or what a piss-poor ending he gave the show. ATWT was dying for 15 years before that last episode. He took the job likely knowing the show was dying. If he was that bothered, he should have let someone who gave a damn let ATWT go out true to itself.

[All My Shadows]

IIRC, the backlash regarding That Couple was never about how their story was written (which was as hollow as most of everything else on the show at the time). I recall a lot of "Nuke hasn't kissed in X number of episodes" complaints on various boards, which was annoying because there were so many things wrong with the show, and this is what people chose to focus on. Then, when those complaints caught wind, and TPTB acknowledged and attempted to remedy them, it was like that segment of the audience collectively told them "Good, now everything is great." But it wasn't.

I just was very, very disappointed in how it all played out. I was roughly the same age as the characters as it all aired, and so I was ready to follow this thing through and feel all of the things, but then...I had to remind myself that this was ATWT, as it was then, a show that set a lot of things up and managed to go nowhere with them. I remember those who'd wished there'd been something between Luke and Kevin instead, and I was probably one of them (I vaguely remember spending time writing fan fiction about it because that's just what 16 years old do). Ultimately, my preferred story would have been a triangle between Luke, Noah, and Maddie, in which they acknowledged that Noah really did have feelings for Maddie (which, in the real story, just vanished the second Luke went shaking his tatas in Noah's face) but was conflicted after actually spending a substantial amount of time with Luke and finding something attractive about him.

This show had a goldmine of young characters in its last 5 years, characters that were ripe for dynamic stories and development, but they stifled every single one of them.

[Vee]

Jake Weary plays gay and does some pretty graphic scenes on TNT's Animal Kingdom (opposite AW's Spencer Treat Clark - that took some getting used to) these days. I believed Zimmer when she said, both in public and in her book later on, that she wanted him to be able to have a normal life and not deal with the grind of a long-term contract. I do think there may also have been some concern about him taking abuse as a young teenager or getting pigeonholed, which I can understand from his mother.

 

Regardless, Van Hansis was mediocre. And it was beyond me how often ATWT would run from any good drama in its last years, trying to shut down any promising storyline immediately. The Luke thing with Laurence Lau - that was dynamite. Gone in, what, three, four weeks?

Edited April 6, 2018 by Vee

[P.J.]

Yeah, God forbid the show write a character driven story and allow chem to develop instead of shoving a couple front and center---two very green actors in Hansis and Silberman to boot. 

 

The "fanbase" demanding "their due" from a show they (or a lot) were only catching on YouTube was infuriating. But, as you say, ATWT didn't do much better where any of the teens in the last 15 years were concerned. 

 

[watson71]

ATWT and GL were living on borrowed time once P&G abolished their Executive in Charge of Production position in 2005.  This was the first tell tale sign that P&G was not interested in their last two remaining soaps.  This position had existed the 1950s.  P&G at the time turned over production supervision of both ATWT and GL to the executive producers.  

 

Then, in 2008, P&G removed their production logo from the end credits of both shows and allowed it to be replaced by the Telenext Media logo.  Telenext was the media company who assisted in the production of the shows for P&G.  It was as if P&G did not want their company named associated with either show at this point in time.

 

Goutman had 9 months from the announcement of ATWT's cancellation to the actual broadcast to prepare the final episode.   While storylines wrapped up, he did nothing as executive producer in the 9 months to make these final episode special.   ATWT had more veteran characters in its cast then any show on at the time.   They were used marginally.   The way Eileen Fulton was used was criminal- she was treated like an under-5 day player.  No flashbacks or special nods to the show's history in the storytelling.  Edge of Night, Search for Tomorrow, and Another World had about 2 months from their announced cancellation to the final episode.  Guiding Light had about 5 months from its announced cancellation to the final episode.  ATWT's 9 months was unprecedented,  and Goutman did nothing memorable to send off P&G's last remaining soap in style.

 

[Khan]

 

I didn't know that Jake has gone on record about that, but I did believe KZ when she said she and her husband pulled him off the show, not because ATWT was going to make Luke gay, but that they were afraid that such a heavy storyline would affect his education. To me, that explanation made perfect sense.