Which makes Rachel an afterthought.

Would TPTB have allowed Marty to fall in love with Wes if John didn't want her?

No.

So why is it acceptable for Rachel?

You act like this is the only time any characters, of any color, fell for each other after one or both were rejected by someone else. It happens all the time in soaps. Why is it forbidden here?

TPTB have worked hard to establish Sky would sacrifice almost anything to be with Gigi & if TPTB weren't so stuck with TPTB mandated endgame couples maybe Sky/Gigi would have a shot but of course when he gets rejected Rachel will be needed as a placeholder until another White ingenue is created for Sky.

That's not a foregone conclusion, first of all. Second, what's your solution? No interracial romances? Even if the audience might rather see her with Sky than Greg?

And JPL's pursed lips, tight shirts, skinny jeans & spirit fingers are a rousing ratification of masculinity?

Not to mention Easton's unwashed, impassive glowering or TSJ's prissy "Is this scene over yet" above it all disillusionment.

You act like I'm defending their output; I'm not. But the fact is TT made himself a target. Is his vulnerability highlighted because of a race in a racist industry? Yes. Is that fair? No. But it is also reality.

The fact that she "needs" a White actor to rescue her & be popular isn't a ringing endorsement to Rachel, Daphne or any minority actress & very offensive.

She doesn't need a white actor; she needs a good actor and a popular one. Neither of which is how TT is currently viewed by the audience right now. Scott Clifton is a different story. I'd settle for a Greg recast but we both know that probably won't happen.

It's what TPTB & a good amount of the audience is comfortable with so action to change the status quo is neither entertained or pursued.

Terrence Howard or Forest Whitaker could be playing Greg & it wouldn't make a difference.

Sure it would. Chairgate would not have happened and we would not be in this position. Maybe they'd be backburnered, but it would not be on the verge of a scuttling as it is now after Greg became YouTube fodder.

There will ALWAYS be excuses why minority pairings fail & why it's ok THAT they fail. When it was Evangeline it was because she was a limited actress & the character was a Mary Sue,

Oh, are we counting Evangeline's interracial romances as a minority pairing? Because her only romance with a black man was RJ. That didn't fail because of RJ. That failed because they wanted to throw her at John.

What will it be when Daphne fails?

She hasn't. Tilford has.

The blatant double standard that it's acceptable that White actors like TSJ, Easton & JPL are rewarded with constant frontburner status, unlimited romantic pairings & unconditional fan support while minority actors are emasculated, marginalized and/or shown the door for NOT being 100% ON at all times offensive & trying to justify it is inexcusable.

I am not justifying it. I'm simply acknowledging the facts. Expecting the audience to wake up and give TT's Greg another go is a fantasy. The only solution is a) recast or move Rachel on. I say that and I like Tilford.

I'd MUCH rather Daphnee leave than be treated as a neo-Khalil in exchange for scant airtime.

DD is not Christel Khalil, but I'd love for her to get Lily's level of airtime.

You're right, it's not okay that minority pairings fail. But even when you have two great actors and fan support it's an uphill road given the industry's POV (hello, Brot and Natalia). So what would you give the audience to invest in with Greg and Rachel, after Chairgate? What's the contract with the audience after that? What do you say to them? And if they don't take to it, what prevents Rachel and Greg from turning into Hank and Sheila thanks to ABC seizing on the failure?

Edited January 14, 201015 yr by Vee

Daphnee would make a great Taylor Roxbury Canon recast on AMC, who returns to PV and schemes were way through Frankie's marriage and steals him away from Randi

Only if we get Vivienne back. Please please please.

I think DD is a good mix of feisty and very together. And I think they played her history the right way without demeaning her or damaging that integrity Rachel always had.

I agree, she is certainly the best Rachel recast so far. Morrow and Grant were both messes and they didn't "feel" like Rachel as DD does, imo. I buy her as Nora and Hank's daughter. Anais Granofsky (Lucy, Degrassi) would be a PERFECT Ellen Bethea Rachel recast. Years ago when ABC's boards were on AOL, we were discussing the color politics of Rachel, how she was cast more and more African-American as she reached her nadir... Lord, we took this show SO seriously.

Daphnee would make a great Taylor Roxbury Canon recast on AMC, who returns to PV and schemes were way through Frankie's marriage and steals him away from Randi

Oh yes, she would be VERY good in that role, and like Marcy Rylan as Lizzie, I would actually LIKE the character... what a difference a recast makes.

Rachel has ALWAYS been a boring character. I just never found her appealing or interesting. I was hoping they would take her in a new direction with the recast but I feel Daphnee was miscast as Rachel. She is better suited for a role that is more feisty as I see her more of a soap vixen look. Rachel is just too tame and lame for her talents. They probably should have cast another black actress as Rachel and had her come on as an advesary for her

I agree to some extent. I do like the character of Rachel, but the actress does seem like she could do more of a vixen type role. I think if they shook Rachel's character up, she would be much better. I do think she's a great actress, though.

Why is it forbidden here?

When Y&R offensively failed at gay stories they were rightfully taken to task for it by gay critics & fans.

When a similar situation that's offensive to minority viewers why is it wrong for them to take OLTL to task?

Second, what's your solution? No interracial romances? Even if the audience might rather see her with Sky than Greg?

If they come at the expense of quality minority ones then yes.

These days it's much more rare to have a minority couple at all than it is for a minority to be a token half of an interracial couple.

But the fact is TT made himself a target. Is his vulnerability highlighted because of a race in a racist industry? Yes. Is that fair? No. But it is also reality.

It's not a reality.

It's a blatant racist double standard & those defending it as a reality are part of the problem not part of the solution.

She doesn't need a white actor; she needs a good actor and a popular one.

Both of whom just conveniently are associated with being White.

Sure it would. Chairgate would not have happened and we would not be in this position.

Tell that to Michael B. Jordan & Lamman Rucker & Paul Taylor.

Maybe they'd be backburnered

Maybe?

Rachel & Greg could be played by Sophie Okonedo & Terrence Howard & they would still end up on the backburner with the excuse that somehow they would be more comfortable there then treated with as much investment as their White peers.

She hasn't. Tilford has.

She has.

It takes TWO actors to make a pairing work.

I am not justifying it. I'm simply acknowledging the facts.

There's a difference?

Expecting the audience to wake up and give TT's Greg another go is a fantasy.

Why?

Minority audiences are expected to wake up & give one horrible White actor after another another go until they establish a workable niche why shouldn't White audiences not be expected the same?

DD is not Christel Khalil, but I'd love for her to get Lily's level of airtime.

Daphnee's a better actress than Khalil but she won't get Khalil's airtime until she becomes a slave to the white penis above all else which will happen soon enough.

So what would you give the audience to invest in with Greg and Rachel, after Chairgate? What's the contract with the audience after that? What do you say to them? And if they don't take to it, what prevents Rachel and Greg from turning into Hank and Sheila thanks to ABC seizing on the failure?

So in 2010 we've regressed to the point where a couple of bad scenes is enough to sink a minority pairing, reason to emasculate & eliminate minority male characters & turn any viable minority female characters into concubines for White Men?

Lovely.

When Y&R offensively failed at gay stories they were rightfully taken to task for it by gay critics & fans.

When a similar situation that's offensive to minority viewers why is it wrong for them to take OLTL to task?

Oh, let's not try and draw that comparison again. It's not wrong to take them to task. I do think OLTL and all soaps should be taken to task for not investing much, much more effort into minority couples. It's part of why I'd like to see Greg and Rachel get a second chance with an actor the audience is more receptive to. But I also understand what is actually going to happen here. The audience has tuned Greg out, and if you leave Tilford around or Rachel with Tilford's Greg, they will end up tuning her out. It is the same old song, and it's one that daytime relies upon in order to get audiences complacent, to make them not complain when they cut not one, but both actors of color.

As for Sky and Rachel vs. Greg and Rachel-

If they come at the expense of quality minority ones then yes.

But most of the audience does not consider Greg and Rachel a quality minority couple. Even before Chairgate they were only a handful of us interested. Now there's less. So what do you do?

These days it's much more rare to have a minority couple at all than it is for a minority to be a token half of an interracial couple.

You're absolutely right about that. But that doesn't mean one specific minority couple therefore has a right to exist if the audience will not support it and does not want to watch it. And I fear they don't with Greg and Rachel.

It's a blatant racist double standard & those defending it as a reality are part of the problem not part of the solution.

No - I'm acknowledging the problem and offering solutions, recast, find another man of color, etc., you're not. You're saying let them go on as they are; the problem is, after Chairgate there's almost no one supporting them as they are.

Both of whom just conveniently are associated with being White.

Not to me. It wouldn't matter to me if Schuyler was white, black or polka-dot; the point is he has buzz, the audience likes him, and they no longer have much interest in Greg. So what do you do?

Tell that to Michael B. Jordan & Lamman Rucker & Paul Taylor.

Lamman Rucker unfortunately played a rapist and a drug kingpin on two different shows; his fate was never in doubt. Taylor and Jordan were exploited by AMC and ATWT, yes, but none of those men ever had Chairgate make the audience turn on them. They were enjoyed by the audience. But TT is just an object of derision to much of the audience now, sad but true.

She has.

It takes TWO actors to make a pairing work.

And what has DD done wrong here? AFAIK she sold this story with Tilford. She didn't throw those chairs. I haven't seen any checkin' out.

There's a difference?

Yes, there is a difference between acknowledging an imbalance and excusing it. Only by acknowledging the imbalance and finding ways to circumvent it can you begin to right it; simply saying an obstacle is wrong and should not be there is not progress and does not help anyone. None of us can singlehandedly stop the daytime industry from employing racist double standards, but we can brainstorm ways for characters of color to succeed and defy that. Y&R did it, AMC did it, in less progressive times. They did it with talented actors who the audience took seriously. Almost no one out there takes Tilford as Greg Evans seriously.

Minority audiences are expected to wake up & give one horrible White actor after another another go until they establish a workable niche why shouldn't White audiences not be expected the same?

I think the laughter at Chairgate is colorblind. And that doesn't resolve the issue of what to do about it. You're saying do nothing and I'm saying that's a death sentence for both characters.

So in 2010 we've regressed to the point where a couple of bad scenes is enough to sink a minority pairing, reason to emasculate & eliminate minority male characters & turn any viable minority female characters into concubines for White Men?

Lovely.

Concubines? Really? And you didn't answer the question. How are you going to get the audience to take Tilford's Greg seriously again after that mess? I'd love to know because I can't think of anything, and I've tried, because I like the guy.

Edited January 14, 201015 yr by Vee

Oh, let's not try and draw that comparison again.

Why not?

I do think OLTL and all soaps should be taken to task for not investing much, much more effort into minority couples.

Yet when they doing just that NOW it's suddenly a problem?

It's part of why I'd like to see Greg and Rachel get a second chance with an actor the audience is more receptive to.

Something which isn't & wasn't ever going to happen.

But most of the audience does not consider Greg and Rachel a quality minority couple. Even before Chairgate they were only a handful of us interested. Now there's less. So what do you do?

You treat them like other couples.

So what they didn't work immediately & Terrell isn't the second coming of James Earl Jones.

That's the point of investing in actors & characters.

You're absolutely right about that. But that doesn't mean one specific minority couple therefore has a right to exist if the audience will not support it and does not want to watch it. And I fear they don't with Greg and Rachel.

Minority couples & characters aren't going to be supported.

That's the point.

The ONLY way racial/ethnic minorities will have anything close to equal or fair representation is to leave Daytime altogether because it's not for us.

No - I'm acknowledging the problem and offering solutions, recast, find another man of color, etc., you're not. You're saying let them go on as they are; the problem is, after Chairgate there's almost no one supporting them as they are.

No.

What I'm saying is that TPTB COULD recast but they won't & that it doesn't matter WHO played Greg because Greg as a character was never meant to succeed.

Not to me. It wouldn't matter to me if Schuyler was white, black or polka-dot; the point is he has buzz, the audience likes him, and they no longer have much interest in Greg. So what do you do?

So once again it's more important to keep the minority actress around regardless of token status or how offensive the message.

They were enjoyed by the audience.

And STILL thrown under the bus for White Men and/or written out.

And what has DD done wrong here?

Apparently not enough.

Yes, there is a difference between acknowledging an imbalance and excusing it. Only by acknowledging the imbalance and finding ways to circumvent it can you right it; simply saying an obstacle is wrong and should not be there is not progress. None of us can singlehandedly stop the daytime industry from employing racist double standards, but we can brainstorm ways for characters of color to succeed and defy that. Y&R did it, AMC did it, in less progressive times. They did it with talented actors who the audience took seriously. Almost no one out there takes Tilford as Greg Evans seriously.

We sure can singlehandedly stop Daytime from employing racist standards but we can start listening to those viewers directly affected by them instead of marginalizing & ignoring them like their onscreen counterparts.

The audience took Debbi, Darnell, Victoria, Tamara, Amelia, Monti, Kristoff, Mike Jordan, Paul Taylor, Peter Parros, Nate Purdee, Tim Stickney, Lamman, Shemar, etc seriously but that hasn't stopped them from throwing them under the bus too.

Nate Purdee has been in The Buke attic for HOW LONG now?

It was laughable when Tim Stickney came back solely to cause trouble for Todd/Tea & TPTB said they wanted to write for him.

Had Tim had stuck around he would be right in the Buke attic with Hank.

Edited January 15, 201015 yr by DeeeDee

I think the laughter at Chairgate is colorblind.

Which is why JPL, Easton & TSJ are all about to be emasculated & written out.

Concubines? Really?

Yes. Really.

She CAN'T make it work with a minority love interest but she conveniently CAN with a White one.

And you didn't answer the question. How are you going to get the audience to take Tilford's Greg seriously again after that mess? I'd love to know because I can't think of anything, and I've tried, because I like the guy.

I'd play him & Rachel, with Frankie & Tonye for awhile.

Let Greg deal with being around his family again & how Phylicia's dislike of Rachel & his increased workload at the hospital affects their relationship.

Also have Greg mentor Kyle & make friends with Marty through Rachel & being colleagues together at work or have him become jealous of Shaun's relationship with Des cause he can't deal with her being over her hero complex of him.

Edited January 14, 201015 yr by DeeeDee

Greg is boring as hell, but Rachel and Sky shouldn't be anything more than friends. Now that Layla is with Cris, bring back Vincent for Rachel.

The audience took Debbi, Darnell, Victoria, Tamara, Amelia, Monti, Kristoff, Mike Jordan, Paul Taylor, Peter Parros, Nate Purdee, Tim Stickney, Lamman, Shemar, etc seriously but that hasn't stopped them from throwing them under the bus too.

Nate Purdee has been in The Buke attic for HOW LONG now?

It was laughable when Tim Stickney came back solely to cause trouble for Todd/Tea & TPTB said they wanted to write for him.

Had Tim had stuck around he would be right in the Buke attic with Hank.

God what an amazing list of actors.

DeeeDee, you willingly acknowledge that ABCD will never do right by black actors and it clearly makes you angry, so what did they show you to make you invest in these characters? I don't mean that in a judgmental way.I was simply wonderingL did OLTL show you something that made you think that just for one second they wouldn't treat the black woman like toilet paper? Did they give you a reason to think that maybe Destiny would be anything more than Mammy to Dani and Matthew's Scarlett and Rhett? Or Layla would be something more than Grace to Fish's Will? Because as I see it Frons hates women and minorities and Ron is, at best, indifferent to them. The show reflects that. I'd like to think that in it's last year OLTL could/would take a stand for the minority women who have been keeping it on the air all these years but we both know that won't happen.

Edited January 16, 201015 yr by marceline

Now that Layla is with Cris, bring back Vincent for Rachel.

Or, make Rachel Amelia's new love interest. ;-)

Get him a topless bartending job somewhere and have people come to him just so he can listen to their problems and dispense sage, topless advice.

Or, let Brody quit the police force, decide to open his own gym, and that way, we'd get him and Ford half-naked, dispensing advice.

Today's show was incredibly boring.

Yes it was.  Once again, the trivial C-listers take over.  But I guess better on a Thursday than a Friday...

Or, let Brody quit the police force, decide to open his own gym, and that way, we'd get him and Ford half-naked, dispensing advice.

Brody and Ford working at a strip club....stripping for money....lol. Ford was yummy today. LOL at the scenes with him, Kyle and Fish. The whole David stuff was so boring....Why does he continue to appear??