June 9-13, 2008

[Sylph]

I know people who claim that soap operas are cliche, but a well-written cliche.

[MarkH]

I think the places where the random sample misses something (though Neilsen is trying) are:

non-live viewing (yes, they try to capture it...but that is less accurate)

congregate viewing (dorms, bars)

non-television viewing

Neilsen or other firms are trying to measure ALL of these...but the simple reality is that people get missed (and likely quite a few).

In the future, if we all have interactive devices (and the recent agreement to put cable-box cards in everyone's new TV is such a device), it would eventually be possible to count close to 100% of the legal "hits" on one's service. I see that as not so far off, actually. That can even count whether commercials were watched or skipped.

Even then, though, in congregate viewing situations, the number of viewers cannot and will not be reliably estimated.

So, I see the technological change that is killing soaps in the short term being useful (in the long term) for producing more accurate viewer counts. Soaps might no longer be around, but other shows will.

[rhinohide]

I don't think they were hyped that much (by comparison). There were a few promos, but we were not inundated with them. The mags picked it up, but I don't think that many viewers actually read the mags. It was mostly online buzz, and I know if I wasn't online, I might have missed it. That said, I don't understand the strategy behind AE's and SH's returns, and I question the efficacy of how these characters are being utilized. Moreso with Tina than Marty. It makes sense after last year to insert Marty right back into a story with Todd, John, and the teens. It appears that's what they're doing. My impression, although I have NO empirical data to back my claim, is that the John/Todd/Teen stories are not among the most popular on the show right now, so perhaps tptb thought Marty might provide a boost there. But AE? There was so much potential for her to be folded into the BE/Cramer/David Vickers storyline that I think has tremendous momentum, and it would have capitalized on that, and provided a better platform for Tina. IMO they should have introduced her into that story, then used her connections to draw Cristian and Sarah into that story more, and from there launch a new story. Instead they had Tina lurk around corners for a few days, spy on people, then immediately put her in isolation with Cris and Sarah. But it's early yet, so the reasoning may become more clear.

Most importantly, I think the way these characters have been introduced has drained some of the momentum from the stories that I consider successful. JMO. Furthermore, I think soap fans have grown bored with casting stunts. Meh? Perhaps it's just me.

[jhc2010]

Wimbledon does start on Monday, but NBC's weekday coverage does not begin until the following Monday, June 30.

NBC Weekday Wimbledon Tennis Schedule

Monday, June 30: 10am-1pm ET

Tuesday, July 1: 10am-1pm ET

Wednesday, July 2: 10am-1pm ET

Thursday, July 3: 12-5pm ET (DAYS preempted)

Friday, July 4: 12-5pm ET (DAYS preempted)

[Loretta3938]

I don't think it is just Daytime that is suffering from ratings drops over the years. Has anyone tried to look at a number one rated primetime show in the 80's and compared it with a primetime number one now? I haven't tried it but I would guess that a primetime show twenty or more years ago had a much bigger audience than the number one program today has. Television itself has lost viewers.

When Days first started their ratings decline (I mean major...below 2.0) last year, I noticed that NBC primetime was also having a bad season. They dropped into fourth place (below) Fox during that time. Could what is going on with primetime affect what ratings we see on daytime?

Nielsen has a lot of problems with their system. For instance, flooding in the midwest is bound to make television viewing unavailable for a lot of people. Such events have become common in the U.S., but how does Nielsen record that when a sizeable group they are measuring is out of commission? Do they guess, based on previous reports from that group, or what?

[CouchTomato]

"Heavy" as far as OLTL promotions go. TA about the SB/RB returns. Ugh. Tina was promoted more than anything OLTL that wasn't driven for months by Todd/teens, Dorian & Jared. You couldn't miss all the p.r. about AE, copious reminders of who Tina was related to, her long history especially with characters still on the show & so on. You couldn't get thru a check-out line without seeing headlines about AE/Tina's return on the mags. After a week since her grand arrival, there's no sign of that Tina at all. Her sister's alone in the dark & her brother's off tormenting one of his rape victims again. Tina's barely even mentioned her siblings. She just heard about the tragic death of her niece's husband & she couldn't wait to get back to talking about herself. Sarah suddenly got a call from her MIA dad but he's kept in the dark too. Let's get back to Cris not telling his cousin Antonio about Tina. Huh? I didn't watch AMC's returnees. Were they handled that way? If so, maybe it's an ABC thing to not use a character's history when somebody is brought back supposedly because of that history. With Frons, who knows?

Thank you. You just summarized what I think is wrong with both returns because of RC's best efforts - to pull a bait & switch on the viewers. Their returns aren't about either character or all the OLTL history TPTB have been promoting. They're about propping characters/plots like Sarah, the teens & John/Marty. SH's Marty isn't very interesting as a prop for nuTodd vs. John. As a prop for Cole, that's just embarrassing. Original Tina isn't very Tina-like, propping up Passions-style hi-jinx & a not very good recast Sarah. I've seen many posts saying they're very disappointed in both returns. Only one of my OLTL friends is still watching after seeing their first week back. He's a huge Rebecca fan who didn't have DirectTV. The rest lost interest when Tina was isolated with Sarah/Cris & Todd started tormenting Marty. That's squandering two major returns to prop up already-overexposed characters. Tina is valuable as Viki's & Todd's sister. For TPTB to pretend otherwise (I think you're correct that they're doing this, very good point) is like forcing the tail to wag the dog. ABC can hedge their bets by having Tina & Marty be props while short-term. But viewers can hedge their bets by not making any commitment after seeing them used as props. There's a dozen other ways RC could've brought back both actresses without using them just to prop up what hasn't worked. These days, soaps can't wait weeks for a return on their investment especially when they involve short-termers. Viewers should at least be enticed, intrigued with a returnee, not feel scammed that it's a returnee propping the SSDD. If viewers are turned off by Todd holding a disabled Marty hostage, TPTB have to try & get them back again. With Cole, Starr & John? Good luck.

[Vee]

I disagree about the returns, completely. Tina and Marty were only just re-introduced and ratings are just plain bad for soaps, period. I don't think it's about the content of OLTL last week, but rather simply about the unhealthy state of daytime on a whole. It goes up to 2.2, goes down to 2.1, and so on. Even Y&R is in the 3.0s now.

I don't think Ron Carlivati has to "pretend" to do anything with his stories nor do I think he's trying to. There are simply a lot of stories and a lot of characters to deal with, and he clearly loves Tina and is loving using her. I don't think she's here to prop, unless you consider the inescapable fact of Tina having to share major story with the daughter she has been estranged from for at least five years "propping." I do not. That's simply soaps. Estranged families will come together, mothers and daughters will share rocky reunions. It would make absolutely no conceivable sane sense for Sarah to not be a huge part of any storyline involving Tina, nor would it make any sense for Cristian not to be involved (as he is Sarah's lover), nor would it make any sense to bring back Marty and leave Todd out of the story. Honestly, who else should she be interacting with? John and Cole?

As it is, Marty has shared no scenes with either McBain or her son yet, so that argument kind of falls on its face. Tina has barely come back and her story has barely started. And both couples set to be somewhat involved with Tina - Cristian and Sarah and Antonio and Talia - have been backburnered for months and months. Why shouldn't they get a turn, especially when they are closely linked to Tina and apparently, Carlo? Who says Viki won't see her sister, when the magazines reported she would?

People love to come to snap judgments based on what they think they know or what they pretend the spoilers mean, but the fact is the offline audience doesn't live like that and your interpretation of events doesn't always match up with reality. Tina interacting with her daughter doesn't make her an island character. Marty interacting with Todd does not make her a prop for John. These are just Soaps 101 things that would of course happen.

And let's of course not forget that Dena Higley and Jill Farren Phelps - OLTL's worst HW and worst EP in its entire history - had absolutely no use for strong veteran females like this. At least Ron gives a [!@#$%^&*] about what people want to see and can tell a compelling story, as opposed to "hire all my friends from CBS and make them cut their hair to look like me" Phelps.

[Ridge]

IA, and it is much to quick to drop an axe on a story. Tina has only been back for a week. That's 5 EPISODES. This is a soap opera after all. It's just a prime case in example of preparing to throw the wrench in something that is clearly working. I'm glad that Tina didn't reunite with Viki yet, there has to be some intrigue. Tina only lurked for like 3 days and met with Sarah. This is hardly the huge dissapointment or "dropping of the bomb" as some claim. But I guess that's to be expected.

A quick fix or rushing to the finale is not going to do anything for the show either and would probably warrant more negative posts than what we are seeing. It's the building of story that makes characters returns worth watching and that is exactly what we are seeing now. Besides with so much going on OLTL it's only fair to pace the story out

[Ridge]

And... furthermore... OLTL was hardly using this Tina and Marty return as a bait and switch or a reel em in. OLTL had a plate full of storylines before their arrivals. Ramsey's scenes with the mystery woman, now Marty, hardly ever took up a days episodes and though historically Tina was referenced, Cristian and Sarah were not the ones mentioning her a lot and they weren't featured a lot either. These are the soap tactics that fail. Tina and Marty's return weren't expected to drive this show, the show had several other storylines already in the windmill, running plenty (Natalie/Jared, Nash's death, Charlie and Viki, Dorian's takeover, Starr/Cole, etc.).

If the show was relying so much on Tina and Marty *all* of these SL's would fade into the windmill and Tina would be featured more prominently as would Marty. But that's not the case. It's being done the *right* way. Story first. Character support second.

[TC]

No, it's not just you Rhino. Regarding AE, who has she interacted with since her return compared to who she had story with during her heyday? For me this "caper" plot feels like a day-to-day minor tease leading up to the more important reunion with her sister, and of course the reunion of two solid acting partners. I can't wait for it to end, perhaps that is the point, but it's more like waiting overnight, in line, for concert tickets than the anticipation of the show. I wonder if sublety is lost on me. As Viki arrived home yesterday and called for Sarah, was I supposed to think she was really feeling Tina's fleeting presence?

As for Marty, I'm close to the same take as you, except that I see Marty as another stab at trying to make John McBain relevant. (I love redundance) Sure there are other layers, but to me that's just Ron Carlivati writing a soap plot that caters his network head-honcho's whims, while at the same time covering his own ass if certain "vertices" in this Fronsian polygon fail yet again.

[Vee]

I don't think either the Thornharts or McBain are long for the show. If Susan is only here for a set period, where does John go as a character with her gone again? Answer: With her out of town. And that's fine. I figured RC decided he could kill two birds with one stone and use a beloved actress and character properly after she had been so abused by DH. I understand Marty has to interact with two characters I dislike, since her romance with John was built by Dena and Cole was created by her; I don't care, as long as Susan's Marty and her fire come through. And they have so far, even with her having amnesia.

[TC]

And then there's Vee... who's caused me to completely re-examine what I just said. Glad you post her, Vee.

[Soapsuds]

What??..noooooooooooooo

You can get home by railway,

You can home by an airplane,

You can make it in a big balloon, but you better make it soon

You can get home by caravan, cross the desert like an Arab man yeah

I don't care, I need the ratings right now

I need them now

Yeah yeah yeah

I don't care how you get here, just get here, get here

I don't care how you get here, just get here if you can

Get here if you can

[TC]

Whatever happened to asking for permission to go out?

[evermore]

ITA that Higley and Phleps were the worst ever! And almost everything else Vee has said.

But I disagree about the propping.

David Vickers hasn't been back long, but in his first week or two he got to interact with Jared, Natalie, Viki, Dorian, Nigel, Clint, and Nora. (And within another week or two he also had scenes with Blair and Addie too) Pretty much everyone you'd exect him to get scenes with, considering his many many ties to the canvas. His return is part of multiple storylines: the long-lost Buchanan brother, the BE takeover, Viki-n-Charlie, now the Cramer women...

By contrast, Tina has only interacted with Ramsey (who's dead), some stuntmen, a new character named Jonas, and Cris and Sara. One week after returning, she's been involved almost exclusively with Cris and Sara, and only Cris and Sara. And judging from next week's spoilers,

any time soon. This is the very definition of a prop: a popular character returning to shore up a single, unpopular storyline (Cris & Sara). For this, they could have brought in ANY actress to play Tina, but they didn't... they brought in Andrea Evans, an actress who has played scenes with all of the vets. Call me stupid for expecting that AE would be working with Erika Slezak or Robin Strasser again... or Trevor St John or Cassie de Paiva or Tuc Watkins. I agree that the character of Tina should play scenes--lots of them--with her daughter. But she should also have lots of scenes with her sister and brother, just as much as David Vickers has had lots of scenes with lots of people.

As for the ratings, can't you just hear Frons screaming at Carlivati now? "I TOLD you no one wants to watch those old characters! Write me some more teens!"