When did Josh Griffith became a bad writer? Or when Good Writers take a turn for the worse

[victoria foxton]

Griffith's Days run was so DARK. Being teamed up with that other dark hack Dena Higley. Made Days unwatchable. I remember his original OLTL run. With Malone to be pretty good. While their second run was awful. Besides poor Ciara raped by her childhood friend Chase. In her ancestral home. We had Will brutally choked to death by Ben. And Maggie's retconned daughter Summer.

Edited March 6, 2021 by victoria foxton

[Forever8]

If we had to have Maggie have a daughter on canvas. Then Marie Wilson should've been a recast for Melissa instead of another long-lost child of Maggie's we have her eldest instead. 

[Soaplovers]

Griffith was best at character consistency and knowing the soap opera structure.  He was never known for his story ideas.

[FrenchBug82]

Broadening the conversation, the utter inconsistency of runs for a same HW - great once, middling others, terrible here and there - is a reminder that a HW doesn't write alone.

If it was down to them, you'd see more consistency. The producing team on one hand and the writing team under them on the other clearly - as examplified by all this - have a huge influence on whether a run is good or bad.

It might go both ways btw: maybe a run was good because producers vetoed the bad ideas and the writing team pitched great stuff. And then the HW gets a bad run because the producers let them run free and the writers under them are not that good or not comfortable pushing back.
Or a HW has a bad run because a producer vetoes the good ideas and the breakdown writing team is not gelling right but gets a good run when everyone is rowing in the same direction.
My personal sense is that the former is probably closer to the truth: bad runs tend to happen to HW later - it is generally her first few ones that are highly praised.
By then they have a reputation and people under them probably don't dare push back or be too bold in pushing things. And producers trust the track record and don't oversee the writing as much. Also, as time goes by, a lot of people upstairs don't seem to care to micromanage as much which means a HW with bad judgement has more leeway than in the 80s.
Either way soaps, like most businesses, need a clear line of authority - meaning one headwriter - but a strong team under them. It goes to finding good writers, nurturing them, listening to them. And a producer that is discerning about how they manage the writing.
It is easier for fans to sum everything up with who was HW at the time but I really think that misses a lot of the real dynamic that makes for a decent or terrible show. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by FrenchBug82

[titan1978]

I don’t know, some of the best ones did a lot of writing alone.  Yes they had Irna to bounce off of, but Bell and Nixon had small staffs and drove story themselves at least through the 1970’s.  Douglas Marland has also been described around here as not very collaborative, outside of scripts.  And the quality was mostly the same no matter who the EP/network.

 

I think the biggest issue is that as the genre changed to be more EP and network driven, the great head writers would rather not, and I don’t blame them.  Who wants to be constantly defending your work- which might even be getting good enough ratings but the networks are corporations so they want the ratings to be going up, not just stable unless you were already #1.

 

So we got the recycled hacks (Griffith, Higley, Passanante, etc).  I think as time went on they continued to get hired because they didn’t fight network notes and could manage the job of HW on a soap (just producing the words, even if lackluster is a skill), and knew how to pitch stories they understand.  Paternity twists, baby stories, generic violence.

 

 

[John]

Griffith I feel is better at scriptwriting or outlining, not being the hW. That burns him out quickly

Labine I liked her oLTL but she had the suits at ABC aganist her

GL: Paul Rauch hated her & she was poised to leave  but no one wanted the job (That should tell you, its all on TPTB at GL) so Labine stayed and was there nearly a year before she finally left

THIS

Then they could have brought Nathan back in as well

[FrenchBug82]

Well we are not comparing current system with old-style soap writers.

In the modern era, it is very much team work.
Interestingly we have an example of a headwriter who did amazing work when he was writing himself encumbered and who tried to come back ten years later in a more collaborative system and it didn't work: AW's Harding Lemay.
Other things are always in play but it comforts my idea that the dynamic with the rest of the team is crucial. I can perfectly accomodate that with your counterpoint of headwriters being great single-handedly doing well.
Sure. Maybe some of the current HW would do well if they were left alone. But in the current system they work as a team and that's what determines what works or not. 
Think of Brad Bell who did fantastic work when he had his parents around - formally at first, informally later - to guide him and rein him in and who has been a disaster since he had been alone at the helm and allowed to give free reins to his worst instincts as a writer and producer.

[Vee]

Megan McTavish's first run at AMC was largely well received because she had a tremendous amount of help behind her, AFAIC. Yet she took credit for most of it. When she was left to her own devices it went south.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Vee

[Soapsuds]

Josh was never a good HW. He should've stayed as SW only. He was actually a good script writer.

[DramatistDreamer]

 Take it from someone who has written alone, as well as with a partner and a "team", writing by committee increases the odds of a very messy outcome. It's the reason for so many flops in Hollywood.

[LondonScribe]

Given what has been discussed specifically about Josh Griffith (his name on the ‘marquee’ as it were) and the conclusion drawn about his evident inability to tell stories/Head Write, what were the ingredients that made his first collaboration with Michael Malone over at One Life To Live work so well?

 

[Vee]

 

I think part of it was an incredible writing team behind them and a gifted EP (Linda Gottlieb) with a very specific vision. But like I said before, I think another key aspect was that they balanced each other out. Malone was often the more florid and romantic guy given to flights of fancy; he could be very dark too and loved southern gothic stuff, but that's a kind of romanticism as well. Griffith was perceived as the edgier, grittier, younger writer who gave the social issue stories (particularly the gang rape) their bite. They created a great formula together with both dark and light. These are superficial stereotypes of each writer, though, and I'm sure there's much more nuance to both men. But we also know Griffith was big on the use of popular, current music, something he brought back with him in 2003 alongside Frank Valentini. I still remember when he and Malone were still ghostwriting early in that year; they did dramatic material with music from both Tori Amos and Elvis Costello, the latter being in a very kinky scene with Ty Treadway and Cat Hickland. The show had gone from brightly lit, loud camp under Gary Tomlin to dark and stylish again very quickly (and soon devolved back into dark camp not long after, but that's another story). That's how you knew Griffith (and Malone) were back.

 

By contrast, if you only have one guy who is already past his prime pushing an (increasingly dated) take on dark, edgy, gritty material - dead kids, cold blooded murder (though again, that DAYS story was 100% justified IMO), rape on the family couch, Jigsaw the Vietnam vet is your dad and has locked you in a torture chamber, etc. - weaknesses are exposed much more quickly.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Vee

[DRW50]

 

I never really thought Culliton was that bad on AW. There were some mistakes (admittedly if I did not dislike Michael I would see his death as more of a mistake...), but he did a lot to revitalize Cass, and tried to write for the older characters. Much of the worst is down to NBC/P&G interference.

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by DRW50

[FrenchBug82]

Yeah, I think my theory works both ways. Some writers are better constrained and/or helped. Others are better when left to their own creative devices.

[Soapsuds]

Culliton should've been kept on ATWT. He was temporary.