When did Josh Griffith became a bad writer? Or when Good Writers take a turn for the worse

[Chris B]

One I’ll mention is Lynn Marie Latham. I know it was primetime, but she took an aging soap in Knots Landing and revitalized it in such a way that kept it current when the other soaps were slowly dying. Her new characters fit in well with the core cast and she respected what came before her. I didn’t watch Port Charles until she left so I can’t speak on that, but as we know her Young and the Restless was a mess. 
 

I do think her first year or so on Y&R was good. I loved the real, meaningful diversity she brought to the show and it was a good mix of business stories, family drama, romance and rivalries. What I think hurt her is when they made her EP and allowed her to fire the old writers and production staff. When they were working as a team it completely worked and was just modernized enough. When they left (and when Victoria Rowell left) it was over for her. She couldn’t seem to map out a week of shows beyond special primetime style episodes. Scenes became far too short and choppy and that balance we had was gone. I strongly believe had she remained HW with no EP title and had Jack Smith and Kay Alden remained they could’ve done great things 

[titan1978]

I agree with all this.  Yes, there were issues with her and her husband on Knots- they didn’t know what to do properly with Valene, and I will always wish Laura had not been killed off.  But the show was also modernized and yet still resembled itself.

 

Y&R with Alden, LMM and Smith for a few years might have slowed the progression into what it is now, and made for a stronger show in the long term.  I also thought the period when they were writing together was pretty good, and it was a mistake to gut the show.

[Soaplovers]

I think Latham/Alden/Smith were a great team in 2006.  It seemed updated, but felt like Y & R....last time it did..tbh.

[Chris B]

It’s funny how you mention them not knowing what to do with Valene. Fan opinion is split on that, but Joan *hated* their writing with a passion. I still can’t get over her quitting as soon as they arrived on Y&R. I think it’s a shame because her Gloria was more menacing, funny and nuanced. But it was like clockwork lol. Considering the stories they wrote for Judith Chapman, clearly she was right (again).

[titan1978]

Her Gloria had real potential to bring a sense of danger to the Abbotts that had been missing since Katherine was sending that cut up photo of Jack and Jill in bed together.  She played her with a shrewd sense that Chapman made daffy and desperate.

 

About Knots- if I was Joan coming off of seasons 3-6, I wouldn’t love their writing either.  Valene/Gary/Abby was an engine that became an umbrella storyline that reached everyone’s stories through relationships, business, and politics.  And as much as I love Abby and preferred Gary with her, I still rooted for Valene to have a good life.

[DramatistDreamer]

Like others have said, Van Ark's Gloria was far more formidable, with the potential to be much more of a factor in the Abbott family, including, perhaps especially versus Jill. Speaking of Jill, Walton and even Dickson had that type of role for years, which is probably why the character managed such longevity, as other characters fell by the wayside in the intervening years.

Gloria was a thorn in the side of the Abbott's until being shunted off to permanent residence with the Baldwin clan.

I remember some people claimed they enjoyed Gloria and Jack's fling but I wonder how much of this enjoyment was a function of both characters being somewhat at loose ends as a result of a lull in storyline.  In any case, I was fine with them not venturing into that territory again since the show had already been there with Jack and Jill, with much better writing.

Chapman's time in the role has mostly been played for laughs. And as the character became more campy, it seemed as though the Baldwin/Fisher family became camp too.

[FrenchBug82]

I am reading these fascinating and very long series of KL reviews and there is a line in the review of S11 (https://thatsallsiknow.blogspot.com/2016/11/knots-landing-season-11.html) that I think really speaks to the broader topic of this thread:

"at the end of the day, Lechowick and Latham weren't at their best when they were empowered; they were at their best when they were humbled."
That, I think, is a dynamic that is very common to the headwriters we are talking about - they are better when they are hemmed in - by their team, as I have argued, by audience reaction - for shows where that matters, etc.

 

 

 

I think this is typically one of these cases (see Joan Collins on GL) of primetime stars who take a soap role without understand how relentless, fast-paced and exhausting daytime schedules can be.
It is probably especially the case with JvA who I bet is a bit of a method actress who likes to overthink her scenes and stuff like this. There is no doing that here.
I agree Gloria never quite gelled and I don't like comic relief Gloria but worth remembering how much the fanbase hated her when she was played straightforwardly (partly because by proxy she focused the anger for John being killed off)

Edited March 15, 2021 by FrenchBug82

[Chris B]

@FrenchBug82But see, I don’t buy that she quit because of the workload, because she had expanded her role by the time she left. I think she quit because of Latham and used the “workload” as an excuse. 

[soapfan770]

I wonder how far in advance warning did Van Ark get lol? There was quite some time passed between Van Ark leaving at the end of 2004 and Latham first getting credited as a story consultant in late 2005.

 

That said, Van Ark did have major creative differences about how Gloria should have been. I recall JVA saying she wanted Gloria to be like “Drea de Matteo“ but said the show wanted her to basically play an Alexis/Abby clone, and that management wouldn’t budge and she felt like an outsider. 

[FrenchBug82]

 

On the other hand, she wasn't going to influence the writing and if they wanted to keep her - and it was a big get at the time - she could have continued playing her the way she wanted. Which she kind of did.
But it is exactly the kind of fussing and overthinking and maybe "bothering" producers and writers with your "vision" that sounds very JvA and that soap TPTB have no patience for.
So it probably all, along with the hours etc, meshed up to what I was saying about her not having expected the daytime industry to work so ruthlessly.
It is not like it is uncommon pattern for people used to other medium coming onto soaps after all and it is perfectly legitimate! It is a tough rhythm and even great actors can have a tough time keeping up.
I think soap fans genuinely underestimate the very pedestrian or pragmatic motives for a lot of the BTS things that happen and influence what we watch

[lucaslesann23]

I don't think josh is a bad writer.

[Liberty City]

 

I agree.