The death of the American mall

[ReddFoxx]

A racist can turn a discussion into My Little Pony isn't a racial one.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

Seriously is there a way to report this guy cuz this is pretty offensive. Gangs come in all races and of all sizes.

This is such a pattern of behavior and it's quite offensive at this point....

[Mr. Vixen]

Yes! I was gonna say the same. My dad used to work bear there and would go all the time on his lunch hour. I remember how beautiful it used to be.

Randall Park didn't close down until 2004 so whatever happened in 1985 obviously didn't force them out of business. It's true that Randall Park wasn't in the BEST neighborhood, but more than that it was just a bad location because it was far away from everything.

[cassadine1991]

WTF happened here? My friends and I are in our 20s and while we sometimes buy things online, we still go to malls

Also it's not where you live, it's how you live your life

[juppiter]

I found this hilarious video from 1984 promoting the opening of my hometown mall:

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That video is so so 80s but it is actually kind of impressive (it also fails to mention the rare ecosystem preserve that was demolished to build the mall). The ONLY store that is advertised that is still there 30 years later is JCPenney (technically. The Filene's stayed open until the end of Filene's when it became a Macy's, which is still open.) They doubled the size of the mall in the 90s, and in the 80s and 90s it was THE place to go if you were a kid or teen. When I visit my hometown now I'm shocked at how many vacancies there are and how it has been completely jacked by the vendors who harass you as you try to walk down the hallway.

[ReddFoxx]

Malls work a lot better in suburban areas that have no downtown area and are a good distance from a shopping district. Where I live, there is an outdoor mall and an indoor/outdoor mall, and they pretty much are treated as a downtown type of shopping district. Also, some lower income areas just don't draw enough customers to sustain a mall, some areas that were once middle income have gone downhill.

[Cheap21]

Crossgates! OMG, I used to go there all the time in college

[Max]

I'm really disturbed by how everyone has ganged up (no pun intended) on Alphanguy (who is as liberal as it gets on every subject apart from gangs and guns). You have every right to be upset at what he says, but you don't have any right to try to muzzle his free speech rights. Our First Amendment guarantees the free expression of political viewpoints--which is essential for a functioning democracy--and if anyone should appreciate this fact, I would expect it to be a liberal. It is downright sickening to know that there is such a "circle jerk" aspect to this message board (which was bravely pointed out by a liberal member of SON) in which any non-PC viewpoint is simply not tolerated. It's the biggest reason why I now seldom post here (which I am sure pleases many people), although ironically my absence pretty much means that there are now no token voices that have a different perspective (save for the occasional comments by Alphanguy, Qfan, and a couple of others). Seriously, what is so bad about being exposed to a different viewpoint? It only helps us grow intellectually, and maybe we might realize that none of us is right all the time.

Now, my own opinion is that Alphanguy is wrong when he states that the gang culture is the reason why shopping malls are dying. Certainly, it is the reason why some malls are dying. (Or, more unfortunately, just the perception that a certain mall caters to a black/urban clientele is enough to draw many white shoppers away, even in the "enlightened" blue states.) But, you see, the death of malls is a relatively new phenomenon, while gang culture (and it being a problem for certain malls) has been going on for many decades. The reasons why so many malls are dying are as follows (and some of these have already been mentioned):

*The internet making shopping cheaper and more convenient

*Outdoor "lifestyle centers" becoming so popular

*The Great Recession that happened under Bush

*The very slow Obama "recovery"

*The massive consolidation of regional department stores into the Dillard's and Macy's nameplates (More than just causing a nameplate switch, these consolidations often resulted in a vacant mall anchor if a particular mall already had an existing Dillard's/Macy's in operation along with a regional department store that was slated for conversion to one of those two nameplates.)

*Sears and JCPenney--historically the two mall anchor tenants with the widest reach--flailing for life

Of course, not all malls will end up closing, but over half of them probably will. The ones that survive (and even perform well) will be the ones that are decidedly upscale, which obviously can only exist in certain areas of the country.

[marceline]

Nobody muzzled his free speech rights. He simply got a negative reaction for his speech. Free speech doesn't mean speech that is free from consequences. He said something hateful and got told so. In a marketplace of ideas, not everything gets bought. Think of Alphaguy's ideas like Crystal Pepsi or the McPizza: we sampled what he had to offer and rejected it. Since nobody's buying what he's selling, he can either sell a different product or go somewhere else to sell the one he makes.

It's always amazing to see right wing conservatives who claim to love the 1st Amendment and the free market abandon both quickly, easily and frequently.

[Ryan Chamberlain]

When I was growing up we had 3 malls plus a gigantic strip mall (Hamburg Pavilion) Hamburg and the enclosed mall that is upscale (the one with Macy's, Nordie's, etc) are both still going strong. But, the other 2 malls have long been dead.

Pity too because I loved hanging out at those 2 the most when I was a kid.

I go to Hamburg often because they have an Ulta (my mecca) and a Meijer's which is the best grocery store ever. But, I rarely go to the other mall (and when I do go it's just to hit up the MAC and Sephora there)

[Bright Eyes]

Bastards! I loved the McPizza as a kid. Are my memories of it wrong? Was it actually awful? I don't want to live in a world ...

[Max]

If you want to disagree with what he is saying, that is fine. It becomes intimidation when people say things such as let's lock the thread, report him to the moderators, his very presence is offensive, etc. You darn well know that he'll not want to participate in the discussion further after being treated like that. The fact that you hope that he goes somewhere else shows a remarkable lack of tolerance on your part for even a token bit of opposition. And just because you label something as "hateful" doesn't make it so. Gangs are a major problem at some shopping malls, and the gang culture is more than just an African-American problem.

There's no inconsistency on my part about the First Amendment. It is the liberals (except Alphanguy and a few others) on this board who are always championing the first amendment except when somebody says something even remotely politically incorrect. And your idea of the "free market" is beyond laughable. You are not interesting in debating Alphanguy on the merits (as I just did, when I explained why his theory is wrong). Instead, you want to label him a "bigot" (which automatically allows you to regard whatever he says as irrelevant and elevates you to the moral high ground) and try to shut down discussion altogether. If the actual "free market" worked this way, certain businesses would never be allowed to operate in the first place (because you have some major "moral" objection to them). Just debate what he says, explain why he is wrong on the merits, and don't try to intimidate or suppress discussion. This is how the free market of ideas is supposed to work.

This is really fascinating, Golden Duck. I'm really curious if the upscale mall was always that way, or was it more mid-range at one point? I ask that because I know that certain malls have become a lot more upscale in an effort to increase their profitability. Sadly, I feel that this has made mall shopping a far less enjoyable experience, because a generation ago--when successful malls catered to the masses--mall shopping was not only more affordable, it was also far more diverse. (Today, you have mostly clothing stores, whereas there used to be book stores, pet shops, music stores, and so much more in a mall.)

[Eric83]

LOL! Many of them claim to be so patriotic and pro American but don't even understand the basics of their constitutional rights. Racist hate speech wont be tolerated and you will deal. I didn't see any poster calling for AlphanGuy to be arrested so his first amendment rights were not being violated. Nice try babe.

[Max]

I don't recall Alphanguy mentioning black people when he brought up gangs. People just assumed that he was disparaging African-Americans because (1) minorities are disproportionately involved in gangs and (2) the unpopular opinions he held about the Martin case.

A lot of people fear gangs, and for good reason, as so many of them are associated with violence. Before you pat yourself on the back for being so "racially enlightened," let's see if you're willing to go into a gang-infested area and walk around, completely unarmed. Only if you are willing to do that, and not feel any fear, can you then come back to Alphanguy and myself and deride us for our "racism."

And you certainly don't have to be arrested to have your free speech rights violated. The way you folks were browbeating and bullying Alphanguy (as I explained earlier) was doing everything short of directly telling him to shut up and don't ever come back. And sadly, this type of treatment is actually an improvement over the free speech violations that are happening at many colleges:

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/on-college-campuses-zoning-out-free-speech

[Eric83]

K.